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View Full Version : Spec E30 vs 944


docwyte
07-04-2007, 02:56 PM
Ok, someone sell me on one vs the other. I have experience in the 944 in the tune of my old 951S, and sorta in the BMW in my old '95 M3.

Either car will need to remain somewhat streetable, as I don't have a truck or a trailer, so I need to drive it to the events. That means I wanna leave AC in it. Yes, I'm a wimp, but if I beat ya, you really get to eat some crow, and if you beat me, I instantly have an excuse. hehe.

My main questions regard cost, prep, fun to drive-ness and overall reliability. If it can be broken, I'm the guy it'll happen to.

RichV
07-04-2007, 05:16 PM
In before Chuck... :D


It comes down to preferance. The E30 field needs to grow here, the 944 racing is already established. Between myself and a few others, the E30s have been very scarce at events. This WILL change in the next year, but most of the E30s are in the works currently.

Mine is close to being competition legal. You can PM/email me for the specifics, but I have about $4000 in my car, but I did sell about $700 of parts that would technicaly make the total $3300.

From feedback I have gotten, the E30s tend to be faster around the tracks than the 944s for the most part. May be due to the torque of the i6 vs i4. Weight is not an issue in the E30 either, I have the basic no interior, stripped AC, cage, Sparco, stock passenger seat. I weighed under the limit, I was at 274x with me in it (180). If I lost the passenger seat and sunroof hardware, it would easily net 50lbs which could be your AC. 2750 is the legal weight. I do like the fact that there is no major parts to be bought. Use this suspension, add sway bars, make it safe, now race.

I love the on-track feel of the car. I'm still learning it, but I love it. I like the boxyness too! :)

As far as reliability, I think both are very good. My experience is more on the E30, but parts are cheap for the M20 motors, some things are a little more, ?but I'm used to 5.0 Mustangs. My buddy had a 85 944 a few years ago, and I remember him complaining how much parts were for the car. The E30 motors last forever, if they are taken care of. Main thing that kills them is not changing timing belts. Broken belt + interferance motor = junk head. So keep an eye on that. I got a spare motor for my E30 for $250 and I'm glad I did. I ended up installing it before the season started. But parts for the E30 seem to be cheap, and readily available. Many Spec E30 vendors too.

RichV
07-04-2007, 05:36 PM
http://denver.craigslist.org/car/362187537.html

Perfect candidate right there. Probably take it home for $1500. :D

docwyte
07-04-2007, 08:35 PM
Do they all have the lsd, or only the "is" models have the lsd? I'm going to go look at an '87 325is tomorrow that a dealer took in on trade. If I can get it for under $1000 I'll buy it and explain to the wife later...

chris_venturini
07-04-2007, 10:32 PM
go ahead and do e30.....






if you like racing by yourself :D

cullenwinter
07-04-2007, 10:48 PM
go ahead and do e30.....






if you like racing by yourself :D

Oh, ouch !! :p Rich, are you going to just sit there and take that ?

RichV
07-04-2007, 11:00 PM
go ahead and do e30.....

if you like racing by yourself :D


Chuck was racing by himself the 1st year too! :cool:

Someone has to be the trendsetter!;)

The 'is' models have the LSD and some other suspension upgrades, also the nice interiors. Some of the 'i' models got the LSD, but not all. I started with the same base E30, 87 325is. Got mine for $800, but it needed a motor in the end. I know what stuff sells off those, let me know if you end up getting it. The 89+ cars are cooler looking since they do not have the 3 foot bumpers, but the early 'is' front splitter just look tough!

leggwork
07-04-2007, 11:10 PM
got back to working on mine these last couple of weekends and today, won't be much longer ...
bruce

svochuck
07-04-2007, 11:48 PM
Sorry I had to work today ...
All good points. 944-spec is a west coast class and yes We have about 11 cars in build or racing in the RM region. 944-cup is an east coast class and just had the largest field ever for a nasa event (yep even more cars than SM) .

The E30 rules are tighter the good on that is the cars should be more equal . the bad on that is you can not choose different suspension bits to make your car feel the way you want . ie I run 300 lb front springs Dirks runs 350# and other drivers use 400# all while Chrs is using 250# ... all Fast but way different feel.

E30 will be here soon but I would guess 1 and a half years till they start getting full fields of cars. 944-spec should have 7 + cars at all of our events for the rest of the year.

The 944-spec group is family (in our region) cars at my house quite a bit , We share cars (I drove Eric Kuhns and Dave Dirks car last weekend), We share all of the prize Money 1st or 5th you get about $150 per day from our Outstanding Sponsors ! , We have dinner on Sunday nights after the races. We give $ to drivers building there cars Mike got $200 for his DartAuto car and We pay for part of your cage at Hanksville ! All of the cars have the same stickers and number plates so they look and feel like a team. The racing is close, top time at MAM was less than a tenth of a second from second place top time. blah blah blah

We will have a build party before Pueblo come check us out !

Bottom line ... E30 , SM ,CMC ,944 Challenge are all FUN and would make for great racing !

docwyte
07-05-2007, 01:37 PM
Chuck, give me a call when ya can today, thanks!

Evil86Saleen
07-05-2007, 02:07 PM
The difference.

944 = ugly :D

E30 = sexy :D

kyle

svochuck
07-05-2007, 02:16 PM
The difference.

944 = ugly :D

E30 = sexy :D

kyle

Easy on whatever it is youre Smokin

Weston
07-05-2007, 02:20 PM
Here's a picture I found of a Spec-E30 car...

http://i10.tinypic.com/5zchv8h.jpg


:D

Evil86Saleen
07-05-2007, 02:23 PM
Here's a picture I found of a Spec-E30 car...

http://i10.tinypic.com/5zchv8h.jpg


:D

hahahahahahahaha. love it.:D

kyle

Evil86Saleen
07-05-2007, 02:24 PM
Easy on whatever it is youre Smokin

:p

kyle

leggwork
07-05-2007, 03:33 PM
here's my take on spec e30 vs. 944 spec

- as Chuck noted, both series will ultimately be fun classes.
- GRM named Spec E30 their "Editors' Choice" http://www.nasarockymountain.com/nasa_forums/showthread.php?t=601 and they are documenting a build right now http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/news/category/project-cars/nasa-spec-e30-bmw/ so there will be lots of interest in the class.
- largest group of spec e30's are on the east coast - the Mid-atlantic region recently had a 27 car field at VIR http://www.nasarockymountain.com/nasa_forums/showthread.php?t=735&highlight=spec . The california regions are growing fast now also. Locally, it will likely be 2008 before we have a comparable field size to the 944's (assuming Doug can get his car running (inside dig!))
- Spec E30 is more 'spec' than 944 Spec. For example, Spec e30 requires a specific shock, spring and sway bar setup. This means that everyone is more closely matched and you do not spend all your time tinkering with the suspension setup, wondering if it is you or the setup, or spending money on chasing this year's hot setup. Some people like tinkering, others don't. Spec E30 is more of a driver-comparison series.
- the same-spec nature of the cars means that you could fly in to a remote track and race in an arrive-and-drive spec e30 car that feels just like your own. It will be easier to compare yourself as a driver to others because there is less influence of equipment variations. Rental spec e30 cars are popping up around the country. Infineon, Thunderhill and Laguna Seca and VIR are on my must drive someday wish list.
- Spec E30 has stronger "benevolent dictators" controlling the rules and who have gone to great lengths to adhere to the initial philosophy of not allowing rules creep. 944 spec has been going through some growing pains with their rules and lost a number of racers in the latest round of allowed parts takebacks.
- there is a strong online community at www.spece30.com - so there is a lot of camaraderie off track as well. There are new regional sub-forums to make it easier for people in an area to "hang out" and help each other out.
- spec e30 cars are somewhat faster than the 944's (mainly six vs. 4 cyl, I think)
- in spec e30, it's easy to make the regulation weight without removing the dashboard ;-)
- you can run an unmodified Spec E30 in BMWCCA club racing KP class if that interests you (although not many CR races nearby here)
- it seems that the e30's are easier to work on (physical access)
- the more upright windshield on an e30 looks like it will give more window escape room if you're running a halo seat
- a 4 door spec e30 would allow you room in the rear to carry stuff to/from the track
- there were 2.4 million e30's made, so parts are reasonable and junkyard sources or parts cars are plentiful. I don't know much about 944 parts costs.
- costs should be comparable for the same level of car prep for safety and reliability (proactively replacing parts to ensure a trouble free weekend). There are spec 944 cars on the market for $10,500 for example. Rich Vogl has built his car for <$5K, mine is trending towards $10K (lots of new parts). There are a lot of things that you can leave for "later" to stage the expenses. There is a ton of DIY how-to's on the internet to follow. I'm doing all the work (except cage) on my car to use it as a learning experience also.
- one of the goals of spec e30 is to create a race car that is satisfying but not so high strung that it becomes a maintenance/tweaking nightmare. Anecdotally I hear a lot of guys don't have to do much on race weekends other than check fluids and tire pressures.
- I do plan to start drumming up sponsorship support like Chuck has and I like his ideas on $ sharing. Spec e30 is eligible for toyo bucks as well.
- and, apparently,
944=ugly
e30=sexy
:-)
cheers,
bruce

Evil86Saleen
07-05-2007, 04:16 PM
As a outsider this is what I see as the PROs of each.

E30.
- Bruce Legget is a A+ dude.
-M20 is one tough engine
- 6 cyl
-good balance
-easy to make weight
-easy to work on.
-truly a spec class
-pretty cheap
-classic 80s styling. Gotta love the flying box

The E30 is similar to the fox chassis mustang in styling (80s box look) and that they are pretty easy to work on. From a cost stand point I also like the true "spec" in spec E30.

944
- Chuck Taylor....enough said
- those big bubbly fenders are just cool
- Porsche. what can you say
- fairly low cost
- mods are a little bit more open and allow for tinkering
-good balance.

Honestly I dont think you can go wrong with either one. I looked at both before sticking with CMC and those big heavy big V8 musclecars. If I was to do it again I would go E30 because of the similarity tot he fox mustang how easy they are to work on.


Howver both the 944s and the E30s are scared of my crap box.

http://www.performanceimagery.com/events/nasa/2007/LaJuntaJune/HPDE12/20/imagepages/image11.html

I really think that Rich may need some sway bar action on the E30.

http://www.performanceimagery.com/events/nasa/2007/LaJuntaJune/HPDE12/52/imagepages/image42.html


kyle

svochuck
07-05-2007, 04:20 PM
Yep, it's all good !

Lets see some of them Boxes out at the track !

Special Ed GT
07-05-2007, 06:13 PM
Howver both the 944s and the E30s are scared of my crap box.

http://www.performanceimagery.com/events/nasa/2007/LaJuntaJune/HPDE12/20/imagepages/image11.html

kyle

Kyle, that is a really cool pic. The car's looking great!

Hank

Evil86Saleen
07-05-2007, 09:18 PM
Thanks Hank. With my little budget any compliment is cool. Now I just need to find some miracle grow for the money tree and find about 40hp and some decent brakes.

kyle

RichV
07-05-2007, 09:32 PM
Great Kyle! Thanks for that pic. I'll probably be $300 lighter at PMI with some new sways! :D

Evil86Saleen
07-05-2007, 09:35 PM
Do it. You know ya wanna. Get out there and show those 944 dudes that they are not the only german engineered car on the track.

chant

Rich...Rich...Rich.. You can do it....

kyle

supermac
07-05-2007, 09:43 PM
You know what, just end the debate and go CMC! Everyone want's to drive a ground pounder!

dfezz12
07-06-2007, 07:05 AM
You know what, just end the debate and go CMC! Everyone want's to drive a ground pounder!

My old chicken is not up to racing in the front yet either - just check out the times. Get the Green Machine out in CMC at Pueblo and have some fun.

raybob9289
07-06-2007, 07:34 AM
Ok, someone sell me on one vs the other. I have experience in the 944 in the tune of my old 951S, and sorta in the BMW in my old '95 M3.

Either car will need to remain somewhat streetable, as I don't have a truck or a trailer, so I need to drive it to the events. That means I wanna leave AC in it. Yes, I'm a wimp, but if I beat ya, you really get to eat some crow, and if you beat me, I instantly have an excuse. hehe.

My main questions regard cost, prep, fun to drive-ness and overall reliability. If it can be broken, I'm the guy it'll happen to.

Get a CMC car, ground pounding is way more fun than buzzing around hoping the wind is behind you! :D

Snymo
07-06-2007, 08:41 AM
Get a CMC car, ground pounding is way more fun than buzzing around hoping the wind is behind you! :D

That is the funniest thing I've read on here in a long time!!! I vote this post of the year so far! :D

Rick

944-spec#94
07-09-2007, 12:35 PM
I have been involved with 944 spec from the begining. This was in the spring 2002. I have been racing in the class since then had input on the rules from the start. For the last couple years I have been Chuck's couterpart in the Arizona region.

The goal of the class was low cost, equal, fun racing.

The class rules as they stand now are an evolution of those ideals.

In general we chose to spec things out they would make the biggest differences and left open the things that would not or would add cost

Engines are to be stock and the expectation is old junkyard or home rebuilt motor should be able to complete. Some of the 2007 rules changes were make to futher ensure they no special effort is needed to make a competitive motor.

All cars coming in at the same min weight. The weight was chose because lighter = faster and in general you can get to weight. It does take some work.

Tires and wheels are spec'ed out becuase those make the big differences in performance and cost.

Bodies are the same except for the allowance of the 924S. The 924S was allowed because it is a 944 with narrow fenders.

The suspension was not fully spec'ed out because there was no need to do so. We did limit rear spring rate to a max of the 30 mm t-bar. This was done to elminiate the costly coilover systems. The other advantage is that this creates a spring rate range.

Stock spring rates are in the 110-120 lbs inch range front and rear. 944 spec spring rates run to about 400 lbs in front and 330 lbs in (30 mm tbar) rear. While this may seem like a large range it does allow for a driver to determine the set-up that works best for them.

The downside in picking spring rates is always runing "someone elses" set-up. This spring rate range allow every driver to make the car handle like they want to.


My advice is you need to pick car you will like to drive and group of guys you want to race with. I have been racing with the same group of guys since 2002 and part of the reason we stay racing together is we have fun at the track.