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leggwork
09-11-2007, 11:36 PM
some important lessons ...
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/content/shelbyfire.html

one thing he didn't emphasize is to get rid of the sternum strap. They're not legal in many sanctioning bodies and can choke you to death, not to mention being hard to get out of as he experienced.
cheers,
bruce

zvtran
09-12-2007, 10:29 AM
Bruce, thanks for sending. A warning about being complacent, even with 20 years of driving experience! BTW, what is a sternum strap?

Zung

MattB
09-12-2007, 10:37 AM
Its a single strap that goes around the seat and your torso.

Lee Hodgson
09-12-2007, 10:49 AM
Guess I have some practice escapes to do. How would you test the fire bottle with out making a mess of the car?

cullenwinter
09-12-2007, 10:54 AM
Guess I have some practice escapes to do. How would you test the fire bottle with out making a mess of the car?

Good question ! I'm running a SPA two nozzle system in my car, but since I haven't seen it yet, I don't know yet if they have a test procedure. I'll let you know when I get the car home this weekend and install it.

Thanks for the good read Bruce

Snymo
09-12-2007, 11:15 AM
Actually, I think this is what he meant by a sternum strap. This is supposed to keep the shoulder belts from seperating in an accident.

http://www.ultrashieldrace.com/nControl/showpic.php?id=259

Rick

leggwork
09-12-2007, 11:48 AM
no, it is a velcro strap that joins the two shoulder belts at the level of your sternum. The idea is that it prevents the shoulder belts from separating and coming off the HANS. Proper installation of your belts is the better way to go.
cheers,
bruce

Edit - just like the picture that I just noticed Rick posted ...


Its a single strap that goes around the seat and your torso.

CMC#35
09-12-2007, 12:38 PM
Excellent article. Should be read by all W2W, and most HPDE4 folks.

Thanks for finding and posting.

-chris

leggwork
09-12-2007, 01:42 PM
Guess I have some practice escapes to do. How would you test the fire bottle with out making a mess of the car?

when the same question was asked on the Club Racing list, this answer was posted:

A couple of thoughts come to mind . . .

1. Have the system certified by the Manufacturer every two years. Get it
out of the car and send it to the Manufacturer.
2. Make certain that the safety devices (pins) are pulled while waiting in
Grid. Make this a habit. Put it on your pre-flight checklist. We
routinely find safety pins installed at grid.
3. As the article mentioned, you need to develop "muscle memory" so that you
actually use the system in an emergent situation. The NHRA requires its
drivers to manage the controls blindfolded. Install the E-switch and Fire
System actuator in an unencumbered, easy-to-find location.
4. Practice emergency exits using all of your equipment. Make certain that
your window net falls down (and doesn't interfere with your HANs device).

5. Use only SFI and/or FIA homologated fire systems. Use the proper nozzles
for your system and install it in accordance with the manufacturer's
instructions.
6. Trace the Fire System tubing to ensure that there are no kinks,
particularly if you didn't install the system yourself.


Bob Goppold
SCCA World Challenge Field Staff

chris_venturini
09-12-2007, 06:40 PM
scary stuff. When i first brought my car home i played with how fast i could get out of the car from either side in case i was ever in that situation, the answer is, not as fast as id like.

still waiting on info from NASA before i get a neck restraint though...

BADVENM
09-12-2007, 07:05 PM
Guess I have some practice escapes to do. How would you test the fire bottle with out making a mess of the car?

Load one with confetti, instant party!! Ok, I dont know but it sounded cool.

On a more serious note, are the CMC/AI type race groups tested on our ability to get out of the vehicle within a given period of time? In prepping my car I can guarantee that I wont be taking the short cut when it comes to safety! Kinda spooky reading the story and thinking what would I do if it were me in his situation.

Snymo
09-12-2007, 08:01 PM
From the CCR:

16.2.2 Emergency Exit Time
The car must be setup to allow drivers to exit the car quickly in an emergency. Drivers should be tested from time to time to ensure that they can meet the specified time for exiting the car in the event of an emergency. The driver must demonstrate the ability to exit their car within ten (10) seconds by opening the door (for cars with doors) or formula / sports racers; and within fifteen (15) seconds by way of the window opening for sedans. Drivers must be wearing all of their required driverís gear and be tightly belted into the driverís seat when the clock starts. Anyone that fails this test may be penalized with penalties ranging from a warning to exclusion from participation until corrections are made. Note- passing the Emergency Exit Time test does in no way guarantee anything, as many different situations may present themselves in a real emergency. The test is an exercise for the driver as well as functioning to demonstrate the ability to exit the vehicle.

In World Challenge we had 15 seconds to exit the car and were tested on it before the car received it's tech sticker. I practiced a couple of times and then did it for the test in about 12 seconds and I was being very thorough. 10 seconds is do-able but it would take practice.

Rick

dfezz12
09-12-2007, 08:29 PM
I've been stuck in a off road car on its side and upside down. The roof of the car was the primary way out - had to remove the steering wheel to get out the front. Bit of a challenge for this size guy. The thought of fire was always on my mind. The T/A is a bit easier to exit & I have made some dry runs - the side head net is a problem.
With my latest experiance - The sound of gas exploding around you and running up your skin will put terror through your bones and panic comes into play. Needless to say I have a new respect for the situation and you must be prepared.

chris_venturini
09-12-2007, 08:32 PM
*goes to garage with timer for practice*

ker
09-12-2007, 09:38 PM
and do you know what the "time limit" is on your fire suit?

do you wear something between your suit and helmet to protect your neck in a fire?

and how many of you pull the safety pin on the fire button before starting your race?

ker
09-12-2007, 09:39 PM
From the CCR:

16.2.2 Emergency Exit Time
The car must be setup to allow drivers to exit the car quickly in an emergency. Drivers should be tested from time to time to ensure that they can meet the specified time for exiting the car in the event of an emergency. The driver must demonstrate the ability to exit their car within ten (10) seconds by opening the door (for cars with doors) or formula / sports racers; and within fifteen (15) seconds by way of the window opening for sedans. Drivers must be wearing all of their required driverís gear and be tightly belted into the driverís seat when the clock starts. Anyone that fails this test may be penalized with penalties ranging from a warning to exclusion from participation until corrections are made. Note- passing the Emergency Exit Time test does in no way guarantee anything, as many different situations may present themselves in a real emergency. The test is an exercise for the driver as well as functioning to demonstrate the ability to exit the vehicle.

In World Challenge we had 15 seconds to exit the car and were tested on it before the car received it's tech sticker. I practiced a couple of times and then did it for the test in about 12 seconds and I was being very thorough. 10 seconds is do-able but it would take practice.

Rick

and these time are without panic and in an upright position and not pushing (or pulling) the fire button.

Snymo
09-12-2007, 10:31 PM
Since Kevin brought it up, here are the SFI rating specs for driver's suits. The full spec in PDF format can be found here, SFI Spec (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkyeTu.hG3VYAR8dXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTFhYXNxcTA 1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA01BUDAxNV85N wRsA1dTMQ--/SIG=121ofnon9/EXP=1189743891/**http%3a//www.sparcousa.com/resourceFiles/24.pdf).

SFI Rating - Time to 2nd Degree Burn
3.2A/1 - 3 Seconds
3.2A/3 - 7 Seconds
3.2A/5 - 10 Seconds
3.2A/10 - 19 Seconds
3.2A/15 - 30 Seconds
3.2A/20 - 40 Seconds

A common misunderstanding about SFI ratings is that they represent the number of fabric layers in the garment. It is actually possible for driver suits with various numbers of layers to have the same performance rating. This is due to the wide range of materials used by manufacturers today.

The radiant heat portion of the spec is significant because the majority of racer burns are caused by heat transfer rather than direct flame. Insulation is the best way to prevent this kind of burn. Using multiple layers of fabric helps keep the heat source away from the skin longer because each layer creates air gaps that have to heat up. The extra seconds gained with each layer are precious to a driver trying to escape from a burning car.
Another way to obtain extra air gaps is to wear racing underwear. Nomex underwear should be worn with every type of driver suit, especially single layer suits because it will double the protection time (+3 seconds). The 3.2A rating does not include underwear.

Rick

BADVENM
09-12-2007, 10:42 PM
Since Kevin brought it up, here are the SFI rating specs for driver's suits. The full spec in PDF format can be found here, SFI Spec (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkyeTu.hG3VYAR8dXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTFhYXNxcTA 1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA01BUDAxNV85N wRsA1dTMQ--/SIG=121ofnon9/EXP=1189743891/**http%3a//www.sparcousa.com/resourceFiles/24.pdf).

SFI Rating - Time to 2nd Degree Burn
3.2A/1 - 3 Seconds
3.2A/3 - 7 Seconds
3.2A/5 - 10 Seconds
3.2A/10 - 19 Seconds
3.2A/15 - 30 Seconds
3.2A/20 - 40 Seconds

A common misunderstanding about SFI ratings is that they represent the number of fabric layers in the garment. It is actually possible for driver suits with various numbers of layers to have the same performance rating. This is due to the wide range of materials used by manufacturers today.

The radiant heat portion of the spec is significant because the majority of racer burns are caused by heat transfer rather than direct flame. Insulation is the best way to prevent this kind of burn. Using multiple layers of fabric helps keep the heat source away from the skin longer because each layer creates air gaps that have to heat up. The extra seconds gained with each layer are precious to a driver trying to escape from a burning car.
Another way to obtain extra air gaps is to wear racing underwear. Nomex underwear should be worn with every type of driver suit, especially single layer suits because it will double the protection time (+3 seconds). The 3.2A rating does not include underwear.

Rick


Great info, I think I'll be upgrading my driving suit, gloves, etc...gotta see what I have now.

Lee Hodgson
09-13-2007, 09:24 AM
I think the question is answered above but for those of us running with just a fire extinguisher bottle, always pull the pin in grid before going on track?

Snymo
09-13-2007, 10:17 AM
I think the question is answered above but for those of us running with just a fire extinguisher bottle, always pull the pin in grid before going on track?

Lee, there is nothing in the CCR, but personally I say yes you should pull the pin on any fire system before going on track. If you get into the habit of pulling the pin when you get into the car on the grid it will become second nature and you won't even know you do it. It shouldn't matter if it's a bottle of complete system, if the pin is in you can't use it when you really need it.

Rick

ker
09-13-2007, 11:10 AM
Lee, there is nothing in the CCR, but personally I say yes you should pull the pin on any fire system before going on track. If you get into the habit of pulling the pin when you get into the car on the grid it will become second nature and you won't even know you do it. It shouldn't matter if it's a bottle of complete system, if the pin is in you can't use it when you really need it.

Rick

the only time i leave the pin in is when i am giving a ride and i don't want the passenger to accidently trip it.

Snymo
09-13-2007, 12:32 PM
the only time i leave the pin in is when i am giving a ride and i don't want the passenger to accidently trip it.

I agree that you don't pull the plug with passengers. Sorry, I should have specified for races or race-testing (no passengers) only. Use your best judgement here, accidents can happen anytime, not just raceday.

Rick

cullenwinter
09-13-2007, 12:47 PM
Here's a nomex/proban question. My understanding of these fabrics is that their ability to resist heat fades, the more they are exposed to heat. Would this mean that ironing or a really hot dryer would reduce the effectiveness of the suit ?

The reason I ask is that I have some iron on patches on my single layer suit, and wonder if putting those on actually "ruined the suit.

Snymo
09-13-2007, 01:03 PM
Cullen,

I would not iron them on. Sew them on instead. It's a little harder since you have to go through the "glue" on the back, but it's better then getting a potential weak spot in the suit, especially since you have a single-layer suit.

Also, unless your instructions say to, you shouldn't put your suit in the dryer. Sparco says dry-clean only for their suits or wash in the Cold/Delicate cycle with Woolite (what I do) and hang dry away from direct sunlight.

Rick

cullenwinter
09-13-2007, 01:14 PM
Thanks, I will treat my new sfi 5 suit appropriately. The single layer suit was just to meet requirements for One Lap of America.

Weston
09-13-2007, 02:57 PM
I think the question is answered above but for those of us running with just a fire extinguisher bottle, always pull the pin in grid before going on track?

I've thought about this before, and I always leave my fire extinguisher's pin in... being that you have to remove the bottle and squeeze the handle to use it, it's pretty obvious when a big metal pin is preventing you from squeezing down on the handle, or at least it is on my extinguisher. I may forget about the fire extinguisher entirely and just flee the car, but once I grab it, there's no missing that pin. I only need one free hand to unlatch it, pull the pin, and use it. I did make it a little easier to get the pin out though... it originally had a plastic tie that kept the metal pin from falling out, which could have been an issue if I only had one free hand or an injury, so I got rid of that and just wrapped a little electrical tape around the end of the pin after it was inserted. Now it only requires minimal effort from one finger to remove the pin, and it still wont fall out on it's own.

If it were something more automatic like a whole fire system, then a pin or other disabling device is a lot easier to forget about when you actually need to use it, so I'd make sure that such a system is ready to go before getting onto the track. But for just an extinguisher, I know that if I pull the pin ahead of time, I'm just going to either forget to put it back in and end up setting it off in the paddock (thereby ending my race weekend unless I can find a replacement), or setting it off prematurely when I go to grab the bottle in a hurry in an emergency.

chris_venturini
09-13-2007, 03:06 PM
this last race weekend i got very small tear in my racing suit from my car? is there any certified way to fix this? just sew it like normal?

cullenwinter
09-13-2007, 04:59 PM
this last race weekend i got very small tear in my racing suit from my car? is there any certified way to fix this? just sew it like normal?

I don't know about suits, but my seat has a couple small tears, and I was told to use nomex thread, which is not easy to find. Let me know if any of you folks have knowledge of such thread. Thanks

ianacole
09-13-2007, 05:48 PM
I don't know about suits, but my seat has a couple small tears, and I was told to use nomex thread, which is not easy to find. Let me know if any of you folks have knowledge of such thread. Thanks

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=NOMEXTHREAD

chris_venturini
09-13-2007, 06:04 PM
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=NOMEXTHREAD

great. thanks!
ordering

cullenwinter
09-13-2007, 07:33 PM
Score !! Last time I looked, all I could find was a $300 spool of it. Thanks

Snymo
09-13-2007, 10:44 PM
Score !! Last time I looked, all I could find was a $300 spool of it. Thanks

Holy crap, would that even fit in/on your Subbie? This is what I pictured..... :eek:

http://snydermotorsports.tripod.com/temp/cullenthread.jpg

Rick

MHISSTC
09-13-2007, 11:13 PM
Maybe we all need a few of these to attach to those things that need to be removed before taking them out on the track:

http://www.sportys.com/terryc/images/9749m.jpg

95sprtcpedrvr
09-14-2007, 06:40 PM
Holy crap, would that even fit in/on your Subbie? This is what I pictured..... :eek:

http://snydermotorsports.tripod.com/temp/cullenthread.jpg

Rick

Didn't you mean in/on his 944?

Maybe we all need a few of these to attach to those things that need to be removed before taking them out on the track:

http://www.sportys.com/terryc/images/9749m.jpg

I've seen those things used on rack driven cars for years if not decades.

cullenwinter
09-15-2007, 12:01 AM
Good one Rick :p



pssst, I just brought the new car home WOO HOO !

Snymo
09-15-2007, 07:52 AM
Good one Rick :p



pssst, I just brought the new car home WOO HOO !

AND?????? You can't say something like that and then leave us hanging? We need details, specs, pictures.....something!!! TPIWWP!!!! :D

Rick

chris_venturini
09-15-2007, 07:05 PM
Good one Rick :p



pssst, I just brought the new car home WOO HOO !

pics or ban

cullenwinter
09-16-2007, 10:47 PM
pics here
http://www.nasarockymountain.com/nasa_forums/showthread.php?t=1272