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svochuck
11-29-2007, 01:04 AM
new thread ... jumping the start and how to block it.

Check out the video at the end of this page.

http://944spec.org/944SPEC/content/view/80/9/

and compare it to this one.

http://944spec.org/944SPEC/content/view/76/9/1/1/

In the first one the back of the field got a big jump on the front . in the second one the field was smaller and i burped the throttle right before i "held it to the wood" .

as for Dirks being the King of Jumpers ... It's fun to say but not quite true. If the other drivers leave it open it will get used.

Rick what did you do in world challenge when the driver behind you backed off a little before the green flag ?

Snymo
11-29-2007, 07:44 AM
World Challenge used standing starts, so this didn't happen.

micahbones
11-29-2007, 09:31 AM
Check this vid (http://www.excellence-mag.com/movies/swartzbaugh_utah_2006.mov) of some Porsche Cup green flag start shenanigans at MMP (along with the driver's explanation).

Can a driver be penalized (e.g. drive through) for jumping a green flag start or braking too much prior to the flag waving, or are we using the honor system like ultimate frisbee in our 944 spec series?

AvantAddict
11-29-2007, 11:47 AM
Found this video at this years runoffs from that other organization. It is nice since the video has an overlay of the throttle position as well as speed. The driver is keeping the speed constant with a fairly constanct throttle until the green drops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2C1_YogoXU

bpanther
11-29-2007, 03:50 PM
And here is a bunch of 944s from our organization. I haven't watched the footage yet, but I imagine the start was very clean with no shenannigans.

http://drivenasa.com/championships/944-Cup-Championship-video.html


Who was the race director for this group and what were the front row cars told?

Snymo
11-29-2007, 11:50 PM
This is a better video of what can happen when the guys at the back of a pack get a little excited. Looks like a couple of guys tried to speed up, then checked up and then well....see for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN1kpwjC_7g

Rick

svochuck
11-30-2007, 12:37 AM
Check this vid (http://www.excellence-mag.com/movies/swartzbaugh_utah_2006.mov) of some Porsche Cup green flag start shenanigans at MMP (along with the driver's explanation).

Can a driver be penalized (e.g. drive through) for jumping a green flag start or braking too much prior to the flag waving, or are we using the honor system like ultimate frisbee in our 944 spec series?


great video of the gamesmanship being played on a start .

and yes a race director can give a driver penalties but if the green flag is out we need to get going. thats part of the deal with turn 10 at PMP.

944-spec winds up being different than other race groups ... at the start we invert the entire field . Saturdays invert is based on current championship points and Sunday we invert Saturdays race results. So the fast cars and fast drivers are starting last . thats why we stay closer as a pack at the start of a race but it is also why so many cars get passed so soon.

Compare this to if the fastest cars started first. they would string out and if everything stayed the same no one would pass or get passed. I think we see this way too much . Pole sitter wins the race . all of the cars follow each other. yuk . Dirks and i are scheming up some neat handicaps so he can race as hard as he can to try and pass the kids like when he went out on street tires. After we get a few traqmate sessions under the kids and Big I will need to up my game... AND we have a whole crop of rookies that are not just there to be rolling chicanes.

Ok so now someone says that makes the qualifying race have no point ... wrong . we have a $200 bonus to the car that wins the qualifying race . :eek:

Next Year will be AWESOME !

Lee Hodgson
11-30-2007, 08:32 AM
Sounds great Chuck! Keep up the fun and competative factor work. Lets hope the rookie field can shake things up a bit. Lots of work to be done before next season for several of us.

Weston
11-30-2007, 12:40 PM
Dirks and i are scheming up some neat handicaps so he can race as hard as he can to try and pass the kids like when he went out on street tires. After we get a few traqmate sessions under the kids and Big I will need to up my game... AND we have a whole crop of rookies that are not just there to be rolling chicanes.

I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I don't think we need handicaps or "scripted racing". I want a real race. Inverted starts do make things more interesting, and I'm usually not opposed to them, but there's nothing wrong with a traditional starting order, and I would enjoy having one from time to time. We just need to know ahead of time if our qualifying times or heat races are going to count or not.

We really need to discuss our group's shenanigans... You can't say that other drivers aren't a threat to you, or need to improve their driving a lot, when the group agreement was that we'd just play most of the time, so as a result we were all driving at 8/10ths and running 2:00 laps while intentionally letting each other pass. I don't mind doing that to make it more fun for everyone, but the results don't really mean anything, so we shouldn't be doing it during a race that is going to count for something. And personally, I want to earn my passes, rather than have them handed to me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming you or anyone else... You've done an awesome job for us, and I'm grateful for that. This was a group thing and I was a willing part of that, but hindsight is 20/20 and it caused some real problems (not just for me, and not just for our own group), so I really think we need to save that stuff for sessions that don't count for points or starting order.

Snymo
11-30-2007, 01:01 PM
so I really think we need to save that stuff for sessions that don't count for points or starting order.

Snif, snif....look everyone Weston has grown up right before our very eyes. A couple more posts like that and we won't be able to call you one of "the kids" anymore. :rolleyes:

Oh, and I agree with everything you said! :D

ianacole
11-30-2007, 01:49 PM
With the changes happening to turn 10 at Pueblo, from what I've heard about the proposal, it's going to make that a very slow 90* corner. How is this going to impact the rolling starts? Would it make sense to ask that the starting tower be moved further down the straight?

Snymo
11-30-2007, 02:08 PM
Ian, if the cars come through at a reasonable pace, it probably won't have any effect unless there are 20+ cars in the field. However, if they are changing turn 10 like I have heard, won't we have a new starting tower anyway? They may move it by design anyway.

dmdirks
11-30-2007, 02:22 PM
Dirks and i are scheming up some neat handicaps so he can race as hard as he can to try and pass the kids like when he went out on street tires.


Actually what I said was that I was considering running Michelle's car in a less-than-competitive state (meaning until we can afford the go-fast goodies) while she drove mine in Comp School or whatever. Still kicking that idea around, though.

svochuck
11-30-2007, 02:41 PM
I appreciate what you're trying to do, but I don't think we need handicaps or "scripted racing". I want a real race. Inverted starts do make things more interesting, and I'm usually not opposed to them, but there's nothing wrong with a traditional starting order, and I would enjoy having one from time to time. We just need to know ahead of time if our qualifying times or heat races are going to count or not.

We really need to discuss our group's shenanigans... You can't say that other drivers aren't a threat to you, or need to improve their driving a lot, when the group agreement was that we'd just play most of the time, so as a result we were all driving at 8/10ths and running 2:00 laps while intentionally letting each other pass. I don't mind doing that to make it more fun for everyone, but the results don't really mean anything, so we shouldn't be doing it during a race that is going to count for something. And personally, I want to earn my passes, rather than have them handed to me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming you or anyone else... You've done an awesome job for us, and I'm grateful for that. This was a group thing and I was a willing part of that, but hindsight is 20/20 and it caused some real problems (not just for me, and not just for our own group), so I really think we need to save that stuff for sessions that don't count for points or starting order.

I see you have edited this post at least one time... I think it's best to keep dirty laundry off the forum.

keep it fun . keep it light . if you have a problem please let me know how i can help .

micahbones
11-30-2007, 03:22 PM
With the changes happening to turn 10 at Pueblo, from what I've heard about the proposal, it's going to make that a very slow 90* corner.

Had not heard about that until reading your post Ian. That sucks IMO, as in it's current state it's a fun fast corner that requires some cohones. Squaring it off will make it just another heavy braking, slow corner where you lose significant momentum, meaning that power differentials between cars will make more of a difference for a passing maneuver into turn 1 than will exit speed at 10 -- not good for 944s...

chris_venturini
11-30-2007, 03:26 PM
whats the plan for turn 10? extending the track?

Weston
11-30-2007, 03:26 PM
I see you have edited this post at least one time... I think it's best to keep dirty laundry off the forum.

keep it fun . keep it light . if you have a problem please let me know how i can help .

I think I only edited it to correct a grammatical error, but I did hold my tongue on some of the details, which we can discuss elsewhere. It's not a big deal and it's nothing against anyone... there are just some things that I think we as a group need to consider or tweak, then 2008 will be really great.

I touched on certain subjects in this thread because I just wouldn't want other people to get the idea that some of us needed, or wanted, special treatment.

svochuck
11-30-2007, 03:36 PM
it's all good, just as i thought . and the video will show I could only pass Weston and Chris on the straight at Pueblo.

Weston
11-30-2007, 03:41 PM
whats the plan for turn 10? extending the track?

Well, this is all hearsay, but I heard they were planning to make it a sharper turn and reduce it's speed. Apparently some of this has to do with changes they're making for the drag racers, so we're probably going to get the short end of the stick. There was also some mention of them placing barriers for the drag strip by 2009. Again, it's all hearsay at this point, but it seems to be consistent with what others have heard.

chris_venturini
11-30-2007, 03:50 PM
barriers down the middle of the strip like bandimere? sounds kinda dangerous, im having a hard time envisioning how they would make it a sharper turn unless they make turn 9 faster.

ianacole
11-30-2007, 03:55 PM
From what I've heard from people attending a track day last week, the track placed a cone where the new apex was going to be. The best understanding that I have is to take a cone from the corner of the tower, and walk in a straight line about 15~20 feet as if you were extending the west-facing wall of the tower, and that's where the apex of the corner will be. I've also heard reports that this will be done with no new asphalt, but not sure how that will work out. The reasoning behind this is that in order to comply with NHRA requirements the walls have to be against the side of the track - no run off.

And yes, the road racers are getting the short end of the stick again. Some time ago the local S**A clubs made a contribution to the track to upgrade some of the surfaces, to include 10. No one can explain what has happened to the money, how/where it was used, nor can any budget information be provided. It's abundantly clear that the focus of PMI (the PMP management group) is the drag racing community.

Weston
11-30-2007, 03:56 PM
barriers down the middle of the strip like bandimere? sounds kinda dangerous, im having a hard time envisioning how they would make it a sharper turn unless they make turn 9 faster.

What I heard about the barriers wasn't specific, but that's what I'd assume. As for turn 10, I think they were going to make it so that it's not a big wide turn anymore.

chris_venturini
11-30-2007, 03:59 PM
the only problem i have with turn ten is that it doesnt leave much room for error, the apex is marked with tires and concrete, the pavement is inconsistent and the exit is surrounded by concrete on both sides. maybe they can make it not so much of a risk... id hate to rip off my side view mirror while going backwards down half the straight :)

Snymo
11-30-2007, 04:40 PM
Well, to go back to my S**A racing days, they made turn 10 a much sharper/slower turn then NASA ever has. The result was slower corner speeds and less carnage as a result of loosing it after the corner (not always though). NASA has run the corner more as a "take it however you are comfortable" kind of corner and the result is we are used to it as a very fast corner.

The changes required by the NHRA require that the concrete barriers be right on the outside of the track surface, which means there will be no more dirt area between the track and the wall. This means there will be zero room for error coming out of turn 10. As a result, they must slow down the corner by making it sharper. So, they will be putting some kind of curbing or apex marker where the corner will be.

That's my understanding anyway.

Rick

bpanther
12-01-2007, 08:10 AM
If we get a big enough group and it becomes an issue the plan is to keep S/F where it is, but have the green flag start down the straight about 200 feet.

CMC#35
12-01-2007, 08:43 AM
Turn 10 in its current config makes it a momentum corner. Cutting it down changes it completely: it will be all about HP and torque. Bummer.

But it's change that keeps life interesting.

-chris