Forza3, GTS class planning

[Snymo]

Raybob brought this up in another thread, but I've been thinking about this as well. It would be nice to have something in between the Spec Miatas and the AI cars. I don't think we want this class to be the same speed as the others and anything faster and we might as well choose race cars. Maybe something in the high-C or low-B class range to split the difference? I'm leaning towards a FWD or AWD platform to give us a completely different feel from the Miata/AI cars also. So, we have two options:

Option #1: Spec German Car
Two cars that comes to mind that are the VW R32 and the Audi TT 3.2. These cars both use the same AWD platform and engine, a 3.2L VR6 producing 240 HP. With some slight tuning, these cars could be in the 300 HP range and with brakes, suspension, chassis and wheel/tire tuning would be pretty formidable little cars that might slot right into the middle of the Miatas/AI cars we have today.

Option #2: Full GTS Rules
The other option is that we could open it up to the full GTS rule set (modified to fit into what is allowed in Forza3). The GTS rules are pretty simple:

1) The following makes are allowed: Audi, BMW (to include the new MINI), Mercedes-Benz, Opel, Porsche, Volkswagen
2) Any modifications to the cars are allowed, including the use of any tire/wheel combination. NOTE: DOT R-compounds are considerd the "Sport" tire choice, the "Race" tire is considered a slick tire and is NON DOT.
3) The car must have a Roll Cage installed.
4) The car must be classified into GTS1, GTS2, GTS3, GTS4, GTS5, or GTSU based on one of the following formulas using the posted HP, Torque and Weight in your user console.
A) If HP > Torque, class is based on Weight/HP
B) If Torque > HP, class is based on Weight/((HP + Torque)*0.5)

The class breakouts are:
D.O.T. Tires (Street or Sport)
GTSU <5.99 lbs/HP
GTS5 6.0-8.49 lbs/HP
GTS4 8.5-10.99 lbs/HP
GTS3 11.0-14.49 lbs/HP
GTS2 14.50-18.49 lbs/HP
GTS1 >18.50 lbs/HP

Non-D.O.T Tires (Race)
GTSU <6.49 lbs/HP
GTS5 6.5-8.99 lbs/HP
GTS4 9.0-11.99 lbs/HP
GTS3 12.0-15.99 lbs/HP
GTS2 16.0-19.99 lbs/HP
GTS1 >20.0 lbs/HP

If we go with the full ruleset option, we might want to pick a one or two GTS classes to build the cars to so that we don't all show up with something different.


What do you guys think? Spec-ish cars to keep things consistent or something more open that is built to "real" rules?

Thanks,
Rick

[ianacole]

What if we aligned the A, B, C... with GTS classifications? Then people could do what they wanted to their cars within that classification ...

S = GTSU
A = GTS-5
B = GTS-4
C = 3
D = 2
E = 1

We could then specify "We're having a GTS-4 race, or let's switch to 3..." What do you think?

[Snymo]

Ian, that's not a bad idea. However, the other cars (Miata/AI) are pretty much following the letter of the rules. GTS isn't as easy, but whatever guys want to do is fine by me.

[ianacole]

Does F3 allow you to make discrete adjustments to weight and HP, or is it kind of a meat cleaver approach?

[Dillon]

Pretty much meat cleaver approach. There are several mods that you can make to do small adjustments (i.e. driveshaft, wheels, exhaust) but there's no way to put in ballasts :(

I think something in the B class would be good since it's in between SM and AI...will have to take a look and see what's interesting. Rick's suggestions are good ones though.

[jgray]

Rick,

Since you are arguably most familiar with Forza and enjoy the tuning aspect, I nominate you to develop a tuning recipe for us to follow, much in the same manner as we had for the Spec Miata. Bring out a new platform and tuning list (or two!) to follow each week and we'll race it. How about that?

I personally don't have much time to devote to testing and tuning different cars, that's why the spec thing was appealing - we all had the same performance in our vehicles. But I think it's great that we can appeal to everyone's personal interests by racing AI, Miata, GTS, etc. I never would have considered racing AI cars, but now that I have I can see that it's quite fun and I get a small sense of what the knuckle dragers are doing. I assume Spec 944 will be around the corner soon too...

It's really interesting to see how these Saturday night events have grown. I'm really enjoying this.

Joel

[Snymo]

You can take weight out in chunks, but you can't really add weight unless you add the chunk back in. HP is a little easier since there are lots of options that change the HP of a car. Without sitting down and building things though I don't know how viable it is to get to the lbs/HP numbers of the GTS classes.

[Snymo]

I nominate you to develop a tuning recipe for us to follow, much in the same manner as we had for the Spec Miata. Bring out a new platform and tuning list (or two!) to follow each week and we'll race it. How about that?

I can do that. I'll try to get something together for next weekend as we'll all be proudly thrashing our new AI cars this weekend. I'll start with the R32/TT concept and then we'll work it from there.

Thanks!

[jgray]

Awesome! I'll probably learn more about tuning this way too.

[Dillon]

I assume Spec 944 will be around the corner soon too...
I think that probably would have been the first choice, but there are no N/A 944s in Forza 3 :( And the turbo car really doesn't compare. The extra power makes the handling characteristics completely different. I'd say the Miatas are about as close as we're going to get to a 944 Spec car.

[raybob9289]

Snyder & Ian,
There is gotta be somethin easier than GTS1, GTS2, GTS3, GTS4, GTS5, or GTSU? Just GTS???
To keep it simple I like your idea to be between AI & SM.
What would a Bclass German Car be GTS1 or 2 or??
Gotta keep it simple for us mouth breathing, knuckle Dragging Hillbillys. LOL
I like my M3 so FWD would be a drag but I'll build whatever Kraut car I need to, to Race in your GTS series.
Actung Baby, I gotta go buy some cake!!!!

BTW, We are working on Vintage Trans Am Class, How f*ckin cool is this shit.

[Snymo]

Raybob, I understand completely and I'm working on a "just GTS" formula now.

I did some initial builds last night of the R32 and TT 3.2. The cars came out at C401 and C395 respectively, which is right in between the Miata/AI classes. Initial tests have them in the 1:35 range (0.1 seconds apart) at Road Atlanta but I can probably get that down a second or so. For reference the power/weight ratio came out at 11.7 lbs/HP which would put these into the GTS3 category. That seems to be where we want to be to stay in between the other classes. So, I'll continue working out the specs and publish the build list when completed.

Thanks!

[GaryM05]

R32 vs. TT sounds good. A full-blown GTS3 (or whatever) build-your-own and race it could also be fun, but a pretty big time commitment for what might end up being pretty dull racing, so I think the spec-built choice of two cars between SM and AI will end up being the way to go.

Vintage Trans-Am sounds great, too - I'm looking forward to learning more about that as it moves forward. Can't wait to relive the original Pony Car wars! :D

[raybob9289]

R32 vs. TT sounds good. A full-blown GTS3 (or whatever) build-your-own and race it could also be fun, but a pretty big time commitment for what might end up being pretty dull racing, so I think the spec-built choice of two cars between SM and AI will end up being the way to go.

Vintage Trans-Am sounds great, too - I'm looking forward to learning more about that as it moves forward. Can't wait to relive the original Pony Car wars! :D

Will my M3 fit or will I need something else?
I will stay tuned.

I started building my 70 Sam Posey Challenger the other night after seeing Brads Smokey Yunick Camaro and Bills
Parnelli Jones 70 Boss Mustang.
I think the Vintage Trans Am Class will almost be more a
Design Contest?
Lets see what you guys got in a couple of weeks after the GTS builds.:D

[Snymo]

I did some initial builds last night of the R32 and TT 3.2. The cars came out at C401 and C395 respectively, which is right in between the Miata/AI classes. Initial tests have them in the 1:35 range (0.1 seconds apart) at Road Atlanta but I can probably get that down a second or so.

OK, the second round of testing has been completed, using the XBOX Wheel/Pedals and manual shifting. As I have them setup, the cars run almost identical lap times at Road Atlanta, 1:33.9ish.

This ought to make for some very close racing and give people an option in car choice: VW Golf R32 or the Audi TT 3.2 Quattro. Sorry Raybob, no M3 just yet but I'll be working on some other options as well.

I need to go back through and verify that I have all the mods correctly listed for each car, but the car setups are done. I'll get everything organized and post it all in the next couple of days.

[Dillon]

So, is anyone planning on building a GTS car for this weekend? I'd like to but I don't think I'll have time...I'll be be busy working on my real race car. :)

I like the idea of racing M3s, though. I already have one anyway. Maybe we could do Spec M3 as well...no engine modifications are allowed, but with the few mods that are allowed I think it'd put us somewhere in the low to mid B range. That'd be right in between these GTS cars and AI.

[Snymo]

No GTS for this weekend. I'll post build lists for next week for the Golf R32 and the TT 3.2 Quattor only. I'll work on adding additional cars, but that will take a lot more work to get dialed in. These two cars use the same chassis, AWD, engine and trans so it was a lot easier.