Forza Vintage Trans Am Racing

[raybob9289]

Here it starts.

Here is Snyders car:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1044/868723041_7d99bb57c7.jpg
How cool is that, Snyder Chevrolet??:D

[Snymo]

Hahah, that's awesome!!! I grew up about 45 minutes from Montreal too. ;)

What cars are legal for Vintage Trans Am? What mods are allowed?

[RagingAardvark]

awesome!! Now, if you make a 3CatsRacing Boss 302, I might actually have to buy an XBox Raybob ;)

[raybob9289]

awesome!! Now, if you make a 3CatsRacing Boss 302, I might actually have to buy an XBox Raybob ;)

Sorry no 3catsRacing Erik,
In Forza Vintage T/A we encourage the building of real or true to life cars that really raced back in the day. You are welcome to join us with a 3catsRacing Forza AI car or Spec Pinata??
I remembered the Todco Camaro and I was gonna build one, but when I saw Snyder Chevrolet on the side I figured that one is taken. I built the Sam Posey Classic Wax Challenger instead. Brad Densmore built the Smokey Yunick Camaro and my brother is doing the Penske #6 Vinyl top car from 69.
Hey Rick, Our Vintage T/A cars are coming in around A590ish. big Power with 4 speed ONLY and full race tires on 15" wheels.
I could post a Vintage AI build if your still interested.

[Snymo]

Yeah, post up the build spec when you have a minute. I don't know enough about this AI stuff (modern or vintage) to know what I'm doing. Can I build a Stingray? My dad used to race a 67 split window before I was born so that would be nice to build up.

Rick

[RagingAardvark]

Sorry no 3catsRacing Erik,
In Forza Vintage T/A we encourage the building of real or true to life cars that really raced back in the day.

Beth loves the Parnelli Jones Boss 302s :D
http://bradbarnett.net/mustangs/timeline/69-70/70/ParnelliJones.jpg

Also, what wheels are you guys using?

[Dillon]

I'm excited to race these! They may be even more fun than the AI cars. Since Brad built the yellow Parnelli Jones mustang (I think?), I wanted to build the other famous one...the red, white and black #16 car (http://image.musclemustangfastfords.com/f/8539193/0408mm_20z+1969_Ford_Trans_Am+Front_Passengers_Sid e_View.jpg), but that car was a '69. The body lines of the '70 Boss available in FM3 don't match up very well with that paint scheme, and I had a really hard time making it look good, so I decided to do something else. I painted mine like this car:

http://www.historictransam.com/Drivers/BarryKonier.htm

Originally driven by Gary Matthews, a privateer. It's since been restored and is still being raced today :)

Here's the build. It's at A576 but I think it's fast enough. Like I was saying in the other thread, the cammer engine is kind of an unfair advantage...but it's the only way to make the car competitive, the 429 is way too heavy, not to mention it was a NASCAR engine not a Trans Am engine. Then again, the 302s never made the kind of power that the cammer is capable of :rolleyes:

Engine and Power
---------------------------------
Race Exhaust
Sport Camshaft
Race Oil and Cooling
Race Flywheel

Platform and Handling
----------------------------------
Race Brakes
Race Springs and Dampers
Race Front Anti Roll Bars
Race Rear Anti Roll Bars
Race Chassis Reinforcement and Roll Cage
Race Weight Reduction

Drivetrain
----------------------------------
Race Driveline
Race Differential

Tires and Rims
----------------------------------
Race Tire Compound
255/55/15 Front Tires
265/55/15 Rear Tires
HoleShot Hole Star rims

Aero and Appearance
----------------------------------
Rear Wing
(A front lip is not available for these cars unfortunately)

Conversion
----------------------------------
Engine Swap - Ford 5.0 Cammer

[Dillon]

Yeah, post up the build spec when you have a minute. I don't know enough about this AI stuff (modern or vintage) to know what I'm doing. Can I build a Stingray? My dad used to race a 67 split window before I was born so that would be nice to build up.

Rick
If you have a minute, look up SCCA Trans Am vintage racing. I love reading anything and everything about vintage racing. It was basically a competition between stock-body pony cars, with displacement limited to 5.0L. In real life that included the Boss 302 Mustang, Mercury Cougar, Chevrolet Camaro, Plymouth Barracuda, Dodge Challenger and AMC Javelin. I think that's it. Anyway, in FM3, the only cars I could see us using are the 1969 Camaro SS, 1968 Chrysler / Plymouth Barracuda, 1970 Dodge Challenger, and 1970 Boss 429 Mustang. Racing a Stingray would be awesome, but it'd far outclass the pony cars :D

[ker]

Beth loves the Parnelli Jones Boss 302s :D
http://bradbarnett.net/mustangs/timeline/69-70/70/ParnelliJones.jpg

Also, what wheels are you guys using?

i have a 1:18 scale metal diecast of this one signed by jones and follmer :)

[Snymo]

OK, I decided to take TransAm literally and I just built one of these to A533:
http://www.trans-amseries.com/Drivers/BruceCanepa2.htm

I'll start there and see what happens. ;)

[raybob9289]

Yeah, post up the build spec when you have a minute. I don't know enough about this AI stuff (modern or vintage) to know what I'm doing. Can I build a Stingray? My dad used to race a 67 split window before I was born so that would be nice to build up.

Rick

Rick,
Tell your Dad he's a cool guy, especially if he was racing a Stingray. The Vettes usually ran in B Production unless it was a modded 427 Stingray then he coulda went A prod against the AC Cobra's, XKE Jags etc.
In any case those guys had jumbo sacks cuz those cars were really fast.:D
BTW, 63 was the only split window stingrays.

[raybob9289]

I did the 70 Challenger. I'm at A593
http://www.trans-amseries.com/makes/challenger.htm
If everyone has built one we'll race'em Saturday night?

[Snymo]

Tell your Dad he's a cool guy, especially if he was racing a Stingray. BTW, 63 was the only split window stingrays.

I should qualify that statement. He raced the car in Gymkhanas and Road Rallys in New England against guys like John Buffum....if that helps.

You are correct and I do that all the time. I know it's a 63 but I always say 67. Light metallic blue (Marina or Nassau?), black interior, side pipes....that was a heck of a car.

[GaryM05]

...
If everyone has built one we'll race'em Saturday night?

I've still got to build/paint mine, but yeah - I'll definitely be there on Saturday night!

[jgray]

Are you guys holding this to any sort of spec? Are you using 2.5 engines? Are you suggesting American made only, or can I bring a BRE Datsun to the fight?

[Snymo]

I tried to match up the cars available in Forza3 with what I could fine here: http://www.trans-amseries.com/Roster.htm. It's not easy and some of the engines are too big, but Raybob said try to get to the A580-590 range. I put on the mods I though might work and got to A533 so before I go do more work to it I'll see how it shakes out this weekend. I still might build the Snyder Camaro though. ;)

[Dillon]

Gary, we're trying to keep it as close to original Trans Am rules as possible, so that means any engine in between 2.0L and 5.0L displacement. The cars don't have to be American made, but I think practically all of them were. HOWEVER, given that the Fairlady Z 432 in FM3 has the Japan-spec 2.0L engine, technically it might qualify for the under 2.0L Trans Am category. I don't think they were ever raced in Trans Am, though. Even so I'd love to see some vintage Japanese and European cars in the mix, maybe not racing with these cars, but something else :)

P.S. - Raybob, do you know if that's the only Challenger? I want to build one. Actually I was wanting to build a 'Cuda, but there weren't any 1968 Barracudas in Trans Am.

[jgray]

I don't think they were ever raced in Trans Am, though. Even so I'd love to see some vintage Japanese and European cars in the mix, maybe not racing with these cars, but something else

Actually, they did. But I'm unclear as to whether it was in a different class. Wikipedia says:


The Two-Five Challenge

In 1969 the "U2" class was renamed when the engine displacement limit was increased to 2.5 litres. Porsche 911s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_911) and Alfa Romeo GTVs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_GTV) were dominant, until 1971 when the BRE Datsuns entered the series and dominated through 1972, when Alfa-Romeo and BMW quit the series because an inability to beat the BRE prepared Datsuns. When these two marques dropped out interest in the series waned and the SCCA cancelled the series. Successful drivers included Peter H. Gregg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_H._Gregg), Horst Kwech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Kwech), Bob Sharp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Sharp), and John Morton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Morton_%28driver%29). The Vintage Sedan Racers Group[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Am_Series#cite_note-5) or VSRG is made up of vintage race drivers, car owners, car builders and enthusiast working together to bring the excitement of Trans-Am 2.5 and B-Sedan cars to vintage racing.

The Datsun Z is only a 2.4 litter engine, so I'm not sure what it will take to get my PI up to the 580-590 mark.

[GaryM05]

FWIW, the BRE Datsun 510 raced (and did very well) in the under-2.5L Trans-Am class.

[raybob9289]

Gary, we're trying to keep it as close to original Trans Am rules as possible, so that means any engine in between 2.0L and 5.0L displacement.

P.S. - Raybob, do you know if that's the only Challenger? I want to build one. Actually I was wanting to build a 'Cuda, but there weren't any 1968 Barracudas in Trans Am.

Dillion,
In 1970 Dodge fielded 2 Challengers and Plymouth ran 2 Cuda's. Everyone remembers the Dan Gurney AAR Cuda's. The 1st Trans Am race was won by a 66 Dodge Dart (same platform as the Barracuda) in 1966. 1970 was the zenith of Trans Am...

There was 2 classes, over 2.0 liters and under.
the under 2 liter class had Porsches, Datsuns british Fords etc. The rock stars were the Pony Cars, because the fans could relate to them. Mostly because every kid wanted a Boss or Cuda or Z28. Eventually the under 2.0 liter class went on their own. Trans Am was pretty cool and I think every Road Racing enthusiest should read about it.

[jgray]

FWIW, the BRE Datsun 510 raced (and did very well) in the under-2.5L Trans-Am class.

So, the Z didn't race against the 'Pony cars'? It was the 510?

I should probably know this stuff better, but I'm having fun learning about it now. All thanks to a silly racing game. :D

[Dillon]

Actually, they did. But I'm unclear as to whether it was in a different class.

The Datsun Z is only a 2.4 litter engine, so I'm not sure what it will take to get my PI up to the 580-590 mark.
I believe those particular Datsuns were 510s, but Gary beat me to that :) I thought about building a Z myself, I'll have to look into it more.

I would love to build a 1970 'Cuda (was planning on building an AAR one) but they're not in Forza 3. The Challenger is pretty much the closest thing, that's why I asked. I'm gonna have to do some research and see what I can find that I like...

[GaryM05]

Yeah, I had thought about building up a BRE 510 for this since they technically raced in the Trans-Am series, but I decided against it since that's not really in the spirit of what we're going for with this (big, ground-pounding American V8's that crack the asphault and have almost as much girth as an aircraft carrier.)

Maybe if this progresses long enough and we start looking for more variety beyond the 4 classes that we've got now, though, we could look at expanding into some of the other Vintage cars in the game (2002, 510, 240Z, Jag, Alfa, 914, etc.)

[Snymo]

OK, so I spent some time last night and I now have two Vintange Trans Am cars. I finished the build on the #8 Jerry Titus Trans Am Firebird (http://www.canepa.com/inventory/racecar/Firebird_Titus_Trans-Am_1/index.html) and I'm halfway through the build on the #7 Todco Racing/Snyder Chevrolet Camaro (http://www.burn118diecast.com/r/chevcamaroz28todco.html). Both should be ready and willing for tomorrow night! ;)

[jgray]

I'm still weighing my options, but I found that I like the handling of the '73 Firebird best.

Could these be 'valid' cars too?

Corvette Stingray
Boss 429

My boss is gonna be so pissed that I'm playing on the xbox during business hours.:rolleyes:

[Snymo]

I was told no Vettes, they didn't run in Trans Am. That's why I went with the Firebird (and just to be different) and also built the Camaro (since it already has my name on it). ;)

[jgray]

Ok, I 'm getting really confused as to what my options are now.

[Snymo]

Ok, I 'm getting really confused as to what my options are now.

Yep, so I followed Dillon's post from earlier (see below) and matched that with what I found on http://www.trans-amseries.com/Roster.htm and picked something that made sense but was actually raced in the class....it's a start.

In real life that included the Boss 302 Mustang, Mercury Cougar, Chevrolet Camaro, Plymouth Barracuda, Dodge Challenger and AMC Javelin. I think that's it. Anyway, in FM3, the only cars I could see us using are the 1969 Camaro SS, 1968 Chrysler / Plymouth Barracuda, 1970 Dodge Challenger, and 1970 Boss 429 Mustang.

[Dillon]

Huh I guess I forgot about the '73 firebird. IMO I don't see why you couldn't run it, though it's from different era of trans am.

Boss 429 is fine, a couple of us have built them already actually. They're practically not drivable with the 429 though...engine swap to 5.0L cammer is the way to go.

[Dillon]

Hey raybob, since there were two challengers in trans am painted the same with different numbers, any objections if I paint mine that way too? Does anyone think that'd be too confusing?

[Snymo]

Dillon, it's hard to say without seeing them side by side. What's the other number, Raybob's is 77? Could you do an 'inverted' paint scheeme (blue car, green numbers)? That might be a cool way to make it work.

[GaryM05]

...

My boss is gonna be so pissed that I'm playing on the xbox during business hours.:rolleyes:

Well then don't tell her! :D :D :D

[Dillon]

Dillon, it's hard to say without seeing them side by side. What's the other number, Raybob's is 77? Could you do an 'inverted' paint scheeme (blue car, green numbers)? That might be a cool way to make it work.
Yeah Raybob's is #77 I think, the other car was #76. But I'd make it #8 probably...all my race cars in forza are #8, that's what's on (or will be on, rather) my real race car :) Inverted might be cool, or, I could do the same paint scheme in another factory color. I'll figure something out.

[Snymo]

Well, my Firebird is #8 as that is what it was when it raced in Trans Am, but that shouldn't be a problem.

[Snymo]

Here is Snyders car:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1044/868723041_7d99bb57c7.jpg

Except for the roof I think I got pretty close. ;)

http://snydermotorsports.tripod.com/temp/forza/todco1.jpg

[ker]

So, the Z didn't race against the 'Pony cars'? It was the 510?

I should probably know this stuff better, but I'm having fun learning about it now. All thanks to a silly racing game. :D

twas the 510 from bre (brock enterprise racing). the same pete brock that designed the shelby cobra daytona coupe. john morton (former shelby cobra driver) drove it to victory

[raybob9289]

The Trans-Am Series was created in 1966 by the SCCA as the Trans-American Sedan Championship. Originally derived from the SCCA's A Sedan (A/S) class, it featured purpose-built factory body race cars competing on road courses. The series was known for competition of muscle "pony" cars like the Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro, Plymouth Barracuda, AMC Javelin and Dodge Challenger in the late 1960s and early 1970s, though marques from many different countries have competed in the series.

The early years were largely dominated by Mark Donohue, driving for Roger Penske. Penske campaigned Chevy Camaros through 1969, when he signed with American Motors to race the Javelin in 1970 and 1971. Donohue would chalk up 20 race victories between 1967 and 1970 and three unofficial drivers's championships, the third achieved in 1971. The 1970 Trans Am series is regarded by most racing historians as the high water mark of American road racing. Every "pony car" manufacturer was represented with a factory team and top driving talent: Chevrolet had the Chaparral Chevy Camaro Z28 team with Jim Hall, Ed Leslie, and Vic Elford. Ford's Bud Moore Boss 302 Mustangs were driven by Parnelli Jones and George Follmer. For Plymouth, the All American Racing Cudas were handled by Dan Gurney and Swede Savage. Sam Posey drove Ray Caldwell's Autodynamics Challenger TA, Jerry Titus had the Pontiac Trans Am, and Roger Penske's Sunoco AMC Javelin team starred Mark Donohue and Peter Revson.

[raybob9289]

Yeah Raybob's is #77 I think, the other car was #76. But I'd make it #8 probably...all my race cars in forza are #8, that's what's on (or will be on, rather) my real race car :) Inverted might be cool, or, I could do the same paint scheme in another factory color. I'll figure something out.

Dillion,
You should build the team mate car. Tony Adamowicz drove it and so did Ronnie Bucknam. Let me know how you get the Black roof????

http://www.a2zracer.com/img421.jpg
Here's the only known photo of Tony actually driving the #76 Challenger
at Riverside Raceway in the season's final Trans-Am race.

[raybob9289]

Huh I guess I forgot about the '73 firebird. IMO I don't see why you couldn't run it, though it's from different era of trans am.

Boss 429 is fine, a couple of us have built them already actually. They're practically not drivable with the 429 though...engine swap to 5.0L cammer is the way to go.

Dudes,
The 73 firebird is the exact same car as the 70 so Snyder beat somebody to a really cool build of the Jerry Titus 70 TA.
I think we all agreed that to make the 70 Boss 302 Mustang. its cool to change to the cammar motor.

[Dillon]

Dillion,
You should build the team mate car. Tony Adamowicz drove it and so did Ronnie Bucknam. Let me know how you get the Black roof????

http://www.a2zracer.com/img421.jpg
Here's the only known photo of Tony actually driving the #76 Challenger
at Riverside Raceway in the season's final Trans-Am race.
I don't think it can be painted black, if you couldn't do it I doubt I can either :( Probably one of those "unpaintable" areas. I'm guessing it's a vinyl roof.

I've heard stories that Penske used to acid-dip their chassis and use vinyl tops to cover it up :D

Here's a great article on the glory days of Trans Am:

http://www.carcraft.com/thehistoryof/trans_am_racing_early_years/index.html

[raybob9289]

I don't think it can be painted black, if you couldn't do it I doubt I can either :( Probably one of those "unpaintable" areas. I'm guessing it's a vinyl roof.

I've heard stories that Penske used to acid-dip their chassis and use vinyl tops to cover it up :D

Here's a great article on the glory days of Trans Am:


Dude,
Use Black vinyl shapes to make the top black.
BTW, Great article on Trans Am.

[raybob9289]

Anybody who wants to build a Vintage Trans Am Forza Car and is not an Enthusiest please click the link for some very cool pictures of the greatest Road Racing Series in American History.

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=121287

"Trans Am Lives in the Heart of all AI/CMC Racers"

[raybob9289]

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg52/raybob9289/Challenger.jpg

[jgray]

I'm holding out for the AMC Javelin to be released in a car pack (soon I hope) :)

[95sprtcpedrvr]

Being that for a couple of the cars that are available in the game and you can't reduce the displacement what kind of power to weight ratio are you guys trying for?

[Gary_44]

I'm holding out for the AMC Javelin to be released in a car pack (soon I hope) :)

For a little variety, I built a couple Trans Am cars that I hope are an even match for the class. I uploaded them to the Forza4 club garage. A Couger and a semi-replica of Mark Donahue's Javelin....
http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/GForce944/AMC.jpg

[jgray]

Nice! I was excited to see more Trans Am cars in F4. I'm sure we'll be running those soon too.