Forza3 - Open discussion of new racing classes

[Snymo]

The intent of this thread is to discuss any ideas for new racing classes that racers may have. Any and all ideas are open for discussion including possible cars and setups so they can be reviewed and added to a class. Any new classes that get approved/agreed upon will have a new thread started to follow that specific class.

[Snymo]

Compact Vintage/Vintage TransAm 2.0 liter Class discussion so far.....

I liked those 510s, not sure who decided on those but maybe we need a vintage compact car spec class? :)
if we could get an equalized spec for cars like the Datson 510, BMW 2002, Alfa GTA, and maybe even the Ferrari California that just got released, I think we'd have a good new class to race with some of the older, lesser-used cars in the game.
Are the Alfa GTA and BMW 2002 in the classic cars pack? For people who don't want to get that, there are some other cars I can think of...of course the 510, but also the '73 Porsche 911 RS, '70 Porsche 914, '69 Fairlady Z 432, '69 Toyota 2000GT...I'm sure there are a bunch of Ferraris too :) Only the 510 and 911 were in vintage Trans Am, but I'd be open to exploring other options. I think I'll play around with mods to the 510 and 911.
I believe the Alfa shipped with the game, but the 2002 was in the recently-released Community Choice pack. There's definitely enough of a selection in all the cars you mentioned that we should be able to find a few options for everyone, regardless of whether they have any of the extra downloads or not.
I recall wanting to drive the 510 with your GrandAm cars and was told something like 'it's unAmerican'... So now it's ok to drive them now that you guys had some fun with them one evening? Sheese! I know, I know... There would need to be other 2.0L cars in the mix to make it a race, but why don't we just put Snyder in the 510 while we drive the classic pony cars and call it 'even'? Do I hear a second?!
This will probably sound harsh, but will these old cars (510s, 2002s, 911s) be any fun? Sure, if we are all driving the stock cars on small tracks it can be fun, but it's not like we would drive these around the full Sebring, Road America or any other long tracks. We already have the Spec Miatas which we pretty much race on two or three small tracks anymore.

If we start with an F-class car and mod it to "Trans AM 2.0" specs, it's going to be a mid-to-high D-class car I would guess, which is still below the E-class Spec Miata. So, is this just a wasted effort to build cars that are going to be some of the slowest cars we have and only be good on really, really small tracks??

Just asking.
Hey - there's nothing wrong with 'slow' race cars, as long as all of the other cars in the race are also slow! :D

Personally, I'm getting a little burned out on always running some of the longer, big-name tracks in the game, and think that have a slower class of older cars to run on some of the shorter/tighter circuits would be worth a try.

I think that these could be a lot of fun - the 914, old 911, and 2002 in particular are always a blast to drive, IMO, even in their stock form. With just a little bit of performance tuning and equalizing, I think they could be a lot of fun to race on some of the twistier tracks that we currently avoid (most of which are variations of the fantasy tracks that we never touch - Amalfi, Iberia, some of the point-to-point Fuji stuff, etc.)
I agree Gary. And when you think about it, some of our closest racing has been with the slower cars. If you make a mistake in a fast car, you end up being a half-lap down by the end of the race with no one to race with (or maybe that's just me:)). In the slower cars you can at least see your opposition at the turn ahead of you and know if you're making up (or losing) any ground. There seems to be a lot more bumping and rubbing in the slower cars too for some reason.

I've been getting tired of the tracks we frequent too but haven't said anything about it - just been going with the flow of the group. Prior to the holidays I took some time and worked on the career mode races. I was constantly asking myself, 'what track is this and why don't we race these online?'

Another concern though is that we have a lot of car builds, which is starting to make our casual race nights into a more exclusive group. I hope that the new sticky FAQ's will help with that, but I also don't want to make it too difficult for new people, or else they may not even try to participate. The builds are a cool idea and I don't want to quash the idea of having them, but there should still be some room for racing stock cars using the built-in Performance Index ratings.
I definitely prefer the slower cars, too. Anything faster than our SU builds are extremely difficult to control, at least with the xbox wheel. I personally don't have much fun racing the R3 and above cars, but maybe I just need to spend more time with them.

That said I'd love to see another vintage class. We do have a ton of classes already, true. But IMO the more the merrier :D I agree there ought to be some out of the box racing, but I have the most fun with our spec classes. If anything I think the spec races would attract people rather than turn them away. How about a PT class? Something close to AI, but open to any make?

[Bottoz]

What I like to do (and is what I do in GT5 Online), is give everyone the same car. You can change the color... but it's the exact same car. No tweaks, no mods, just a tire change. That keeps it equal... and you don't have to 'build' jack squat.

[Snymo]

We do that as well sometimes, but it gets kinda boring at times and it's nice to be able to "tweek" a car to your liking. Also, we've found that some people are better at driving cars in "stock" form and will always win so we've tried to break that up a bit.

[Snymo]

Anything faster than our SU builds are extremely difficult to control, at least with the xbox wheel. I personally don't have much fun racing the R3 and above cars, but maybe I just need to spend more time with them.
Maybe that's my problem as I'm the exact opposite. I want faster cars and was thinking about a DTM class with the Audi A4 and Mercedes Benz C-class touring cars, which are R3. I'm also one of the only ones that enjoys driving the P1 cars though, so maybe I'm just weird like that. :confused:

[Robbie]

You could do PT classes easy. PTA, B, C, etc. Any car that meets the class letter (the third letter) with its PI. You get there however you like. Could be fun. I can't add much more since I can't race with you guys until I move to somewhere with real internet.

After some practice, I find the R* cars relatively easy to control with the controller with a little practice. Gotta be smooth on that throttle and hit your marks every time. They don't like curbs.

[Snymo]

I find the R* cars relatively easy to control with the controller with a little practice. Gotta be smooth on that throttle and hit your marks every time. They don't like curbs.
On that note, Dillon does not like to use the Stability Control (I don't either) or the Traction Control (I do use this) and finds that he gets wheelspin too easily. Dillon you might be able to add to this with your exact setup/experiences.

With that said, I think the Traction Control can be adjusted (1-10 scale, I think?!?!) so that it can come on a little and help out but not be overwhelming. I'll have to check to see what I have mine set at tonight, but I try to get just a little tail happy (oversteer) coming out of tight corners but I use the following to address this:


1) Rear Tire Pressure: I will go lower on rear tire pressure to allow the rear tires to get more grip.

2) Rear Swaybar: I will soften the rear swaybar to allow the car to roll and get grip better, which helps to counter the oversteer similar to going lower on the rear tire pressure.

3) Rear Toe: I add more Toe In to help reduce oversteer and will usually run -0.7 to -0.9 in high horsepower cars.

[Robbie]

I use some traction control and no stability control.

[hustler]

I had fun playing with you guys over the weekend. I'm a purist, I use almost no assists. I say "almost" because I'm guilty of traction control on the cars that use it like the C6R, ZR1, prototypes, and other obnoxiously fast stuff. I refuse to use the brake line or ABS.

I think I had the most fun running the Datsun 510's.

We should consider a Lotus 2-Eleven group, the car is free with an ad-on pack and pretty cool on the game.

Maybe Honda Challenge type stuff? Full suspension mods, a diff, big rubber, and a stock-swap motor?

Thoughts on Spec Boxster?

[Dillon]

Spec Boxster would be fun...but IMO too close to our current GTS specs. I think another vintage class would be really cool and worthy of a class because it's different, but the Boxster would fit in nicely with a class we already have. So we could just add it to GTS :)

True, I don't use traction control, didn't like it at all when I tried it before. It helps when I start sliding, but otherwise it's weird to me, like the car is doing something I don't want it to do. Especially when you can't feel the forces of what the car is actually doing. I guess I'm a bit of a purist too, because in the slower cars where it's possible to make a comeback, I'd much rather have it off. If I make a mistake and scrub off speed from sliding, I'd rather take that penalty than have a computer assist me. But I'll give it another shot for the faster cars, especially if it's adjustable.

[GaryM05]

I would agree with adding a spec for the Boxster to GTS, coming up with a Vintage car spec, and also adding a higher-level DTM class (especially since those cars are already in the game, but with generic names like 'Audi Touring Car' or something like that.)

Noobs can build up cars for our various series over time as they earn the cash in-game (the fact that you also earn cash for our online races should help with that), and just pick comparable cars based on PI for series that they haven't built yet.

At this point, though, we might want to think about scaling back on some of our existing series that we rarely race or that aren't that much fun, in order to keep the list manageable and to allow time for 'showroom stock' races that I think we all enjoy when we do them. There are a LOT of cars in this game that never get touched by our group, but which would be fun to race whenever the opportunity presents itself.

[Dillon]

Ok, so I've been playing around with the vintage cars. The only real affordable options are the Porsche 914, 240Z, 510, and Lotus Elan Sprint. The 2000GT and Ferraris are too expensive for this purpose. I couldn't get the 2002 without buying that car pack.

Firstly I should say that there's a pretty good sized disparity between PI when the cars are built to similar levels. The Lotus is surprisingly the easiest and cheapest to make fast, followed by the 914, followed by the Z. The 510 I think isn't worth building...give it any sort of power and it goes sliding all over the place. Clearly it wasn't meant to be built to the level the other cars are capable of. Ironic since it's the car that started this discussion :) At any rate, the times I'm getting are pretty close to our GTS cars. I used Laguna Seca as a test track and am able to consistently run high 1:30s in all three cars. (Fastest time of 1:38.8 in the Z)

As for how I built them...well my idea was to just give them upgrades they likely would have had back in the day. Race exhaust, carburetor, and camshafts. Then give them race brakes, race suspension, race tires, a cage, and weight reduction. I shortly discovered that you pretty much have to give them the widest tires possible or they just drift everywhere, so I did that too. Anyway, their final PIs ended up being anywhere from 410 to 460. At that level they're a blast to drive, and IMO different enough from GTS cars to be worth building. I'll post a list of the builds eventually, but want to play around with them some more, see how equal I can get them. You guys feel free to post your own builds too :D (Maybe we shouldn't upgrade them so much and make them more at a level of the miatas?)

Oh, one more thing...for out of the box racing, I really like the last generation JGTC cars (now Super GT). There are three NSXs, PIs 814 to 816; two R34 Skylines, PI 825; and four Supras, PIs 817 to 819. Between all those it would make for some really close racing that anyone could pick up.

[supermac]

What is a DTM?

[ianacole]

What is a DTM?

http://www.dtm.com/index.php?lang=en

[raybob9289]

What is a DTM?

Its what the eurogeeks watch instead of Aussie V8 Supercars. Hans & Shtoook & Helga. Achtung :D

BTW, Leaderhosen...

[supermac]

http://www.dtm.com/index.php?lang=en
Thanks Ian,
That looks pretty cool, almost as cool as V8 SUPERCARS, the greatest show on wheels!

[Snymo]

True, I don't use traction control, didn't like it at all when I tried it before.....But I'll give it another shot for the faster cars, especially if it's adjustable.

I checked last night and it's all or nothing...on or off in Forza3. I thought I had adjusted it somewhere, but I guess that was in a different game. Anyway, I think it's definitely worth it in the R1-R3s.

[Snymo]

German DTM class info....

Looks like there are four possible cars that qualify, all of which are R2 class cars:

R2-810 - #8 Audi ABT TT-R (455HP, 2381lbs)
R2-814 - Audi A4 Touring Car (476HP, 2161lbs)
R2-817 - #5 OPC TEAM PHOENIX Opel Astra V8 (463HP, 2216lbs)
R2-818 - Mercedes-Benz C-Class Touring Car (475HP, 2161lbs)

They range from $200K (Opel) to $800K (Merc) to buy the car and they are pretty close on the PI index. Available mods are very limited to things like wheel size/style and restrictor plates (which adds massive amounts of HP, +140 or so on the Audi A4). The Merc and Audi A4 only come without paint, but the Opel and Audi TT come with factory paint schemes. However, all of them can be painted and there are lots of paint schemes to purchase as well.

So, I'm thinking just allow wheel upgrades for the two Audis to bring them closer to the Opel/Merc, add some custom paint jobs and call it good. In that respect, it should be very similar to the V8 Supercars we enjoy so much but the DTM cars will be faster (V8 supercars are ~R3-720 PI) and handle better since they have more downforce.

So, what do you think? Anyone interested in racing these? I already have an A4 Touring car built up, so I'm ready to go! :D

[cobrad]

I already have the Opel and I'll try one other out. Let's race this next Sat.

[hustler]

I gotta win a little money with the C6R in R2, then I'll buy a few of these cars.

[95sprtcpedrvr]

It's tough trying to remember what I have in my garage, but I do think I have one of those cars. I'm thinking I acquired the Audi A4. If not I have over 2 million credits so I can buy one.

[hustler]

We need more AIX cars. I recently picked up a heinous beige TA.

[Dillon]

I've been driving with the traction control on and all I have to say is WOW. It's a HUGE difference...makes the faster cars actually drivable, and it's not too intrusive. Though, it's a bit bothersome on the slower cars, which is why I think I didn't like it before. If you're not racing with TCS on in any of the "R" class cars, you should try it.

[95sprtcpedrvr]

I've been driving with the traction control on and all I have to say is WOW. It's a HUGE difference...makes the faster cars actually drivable, and it's not too intrusive. Though, it's a bit bothersome on the slower cars, which is why I think I didn't like it before. If you're not racing with TCS on in any of the "R" class cars, you should try it.

I'm finding it necessary to turn the TCS off with the slower cars too, even with our AI cars.

[hustler]

Hey guys, I can't play Forza anymore because of my shoulder...seriously. I also ran TT this weekend and now I'm looking at surgery. This is why you haven't heard from me.

[Snymo]

German DTM versus Japanese JGTC

German DTM class has four cars from Audi, Opel and Mercedes-Benz:
R2-810 - #8 Audi ABT TT-R (455HP, 2381lbs)
R2-814 - Audi A4 Touring Car (476HP, 2161lbs)
R2-817 - #5 OPC TEAM PHOENIX Opel Astra V8 (463HP, 2216lbs)
R2-818 - Mercedes-Benz C-Class Touring Car (475HP, 2161lbs)

Japanese JGTC class has nine cars from Nissan, Toyota and Honda:
R2-825 - #23 Nissan XANAVI NISMO GT-R (495HP, 2535lbs)
R2-825 - #12 Nissan CALSONIC SKYLINE (495HP, 2535lbs)
R2-819 - #6 Toyota EXXON Superflo Supra (493HP, 2425lbs)
R2-818 - #35 Toyota YellowHat VMS Supra (493HP, 2425lbs)
R2-817 - #36 Toyota OPEN INTERFACE TOM'S SUPRA (493HP, 2425lbs)
R2-817 - #25 Toyota ECLIPSE ADVAN SUPRA (480HP, 2425lbs)
R2-816 - #8 Honda ARTA NSX (500HP, 2601lbs)
R2-815 - #18 Honda TAKATA DOME NSX (500HP, 2601lbs)
R2-814 - #16 Honda G'ZOX NSX (500HP, 2601lbs)

Dillon and I did some testing of various DTM vs JGTC cars and found that overall lap times were extremely close but each style has their own advantages. DTM cars are lighter and less powerful but have more downforce so they handle better. The JGTC cars are heavier and more powerful so they faster in a straight line. The JGTC cars are basically what we all used to drive in GT3 and GT4 (like the Calsonic Nissan) that were so much fun.

I'd suggest that the only upgrade allowed would be wheel mods, although that will only add a point or two on PI. Any custom tune would be allowed to suspension, downforce, transmission, etc!

If there is enough interest I will create a new thread for this. So, who's in?

[supermac]

Its what the eurogeeks watch instead of Aussie V8 Supercars. Hans & Shtoook & Helga. Achtung :D

BTW, Leaderhosen...

Finally watched some DTM.
These things are cartoonish....what is up with all the goofy widgets all over the place.
I thought AI rules were out of control haha
And they seem to explode at the slightest contact, not durable at all.
That also means no close racing, cause if they touch all the body panels and widgets go flying every where!
Ohhh and they had a whopping 10,000 people at the event I watched.
You guys can watch all you want, as for me bring on the SUPERCARS!

[95sprtcpedrvr]

Finally watched some DTM.
These things are cartoonish....what is up with all the goofy widgets all over the place.
I thought AI rules were out of control haha
And they seem to explode at the slightest contact, not durable at all.
That also means no close racing, cause if they touch all the body panels and widgets go flying every where!
Ohhh and they had a whopping 10,000 people at the event I watched.
You guys can watch all you want, as for me bring on the SUPERCARS!

You won't have the grip and downforce in Supercars like you get in DTM. Granted in real life the winglets do fly off fairly easy but when we're online it does get close and we only take on cosmetic damage.

10,000 people is alot for circuit/road racing events IMO.