New wording in CCR regarding four point harnesses

[bpanther]

There is a change in wording in the CCR regarding harness setups that may be used in HPDE and TT other than OEM belts. For exact wording, check the CCR, but to summarize.


Harnesses that are certified by the FIA may be used. The harness must be:

1. Labeled as "B-112.T/98" and be certified under the FIA 8854/98 standard.

2. Use of the harness must have prior approval before using them at a NASA event. Right now the people authorized to approve in RM are Hank and I. We will look at additional training for others.


A quick search I did yesterday found these that should meet the requirements. I don't personally know anything about them or if any meet the requirements. Before buying, you should show them the wording in the NASA CCR and get confirmation from the dealer that they are what you are looking for. I know there are others, if people find them please post and share with your fellow competitors.

http://www.gtfabrications.com/product.php?productid=605
http://gtrspectuning.com/interior-c-268/takata-4-point-harness-p-2085
http://www.ears.ie/product_info.php?cPath=68_38_171&products_id=119&osCsid=30e5d5af84af60070d1aff15a48e2d0e

[hammerevo]

Good info. I think any belts with that certification still need to mount to a cage or bar though. I would be interested in training for this so it doesn't have to bottleneck to two people.

[Snymo]

All, I've got a call into Dave to verify the results of my research into this, but I wanted to share it with others to validate what I am seeing.

The updates to the CCR as of 1/19/2011 state:
11.0 HPDE TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS
11.3 Required Safety Equipment - Driver
11.3.2. The driver and any passenger must utilize modern style* stock seatbelts in very good condition, or a DOT approved restraint system, while operating a vehicle on the track. Restraint system requirements are listed in Section #11.4.8. *Lap belts used without any shoulder restraints are not permitted. Note- no four point belt systems allowed after April 1, 2011, regardless of DOT certification or approval, except that belts with current tags labeled FIA B-112.T/98 and meeting FIA 8854/98 standards may be allowed with advance special approval.

To me, the tricky part is the wording "belts with current tags labeled FIA B-112.T/98 and meeting FIA 8854/98". That means the belts have to meet BOTH requirements. If I'm reading this correctly, that means that one and only one belt is legal. Here's what I've found from the FIA.

Here is a link to the FIA 8854/98 standards which govern 4-point belts with either 3 or 4 anchorage points: CLICK HERE FOR PDF (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/32C8168426FE58FFC1257315004063C9/$FILE/8854-98_Harness.pdf). The english version starts on page 41, but the important part is page 68, which defines how belts meeting these standards will be identified.

All belts meeting FIA 8854/98 will be labled as "FIA B-000.T/98" where:
B = a harness with 4 straps
000 = the number given by the FIA to a specific belt
T = a buckle which opens by turning
98 = the year of the standard

Here is the latest document from the FIA of belts meeting the FIA 8854/98 standard (called List N-24 from 12-16-2010), CLICK HERE FOR PDF (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/DD938A319F0422E3C12577FB0068A8E3/$FILE/L24_Approved_harnesses.pdf).

Since the CCR calls for a belt meeting FIA 8854/98 and FIA B-112.T/98, and List N-24 identifies B-112.T/98 as the Williams Club 4x4 harness, I think this is the ONLY belt that meets both requirements. Here's a link to one supplier for about $170 (http://www.elise-shop.com/willans-club-4x4-safety-harness-p-156.html?zenid=06e0f10e3d4b4e6119294d5f76646f6c) (plus international shipping) and I haven't found a US supplier yet.

Here is the instruction manual for the Club 4x4 harness, CLICK HERE FOR PDF (http://willans.com/download-document/3-silverstone-/-club-4x4-4x3). That seems to imply that the belts have to mounted to eye bolts in specific locations and at specific angles for both the lap and shoulder belts.

So, please review what I've found so far and let me know if this seems right to you as well. Looks to me like we have a single choice for 4-point belts, which is better then none, but it's a belt that requires a specific installation style that may not be possible in some cars.

Thoughts?

[Snymo]

I almost forgot that I contacted Schroth Racing NA this morning to see if their belts were FIA certified. Unfortunately none of their street (they call them Tuning) belts are FIA certified in any way. So, the Rallye 3/4/Cross, AutoControl and all of the Quick Fit/Quick Fit Pro belts do not meet any FIA standard and would still not be legal per the updated CCR.

[hammerevo]

That Willans belt looks like it mounts in the same factory points as the Schroth Ralleye4, at least for my car.

[Snymo]

That Willans belt looks like it mounts in the same factory points as the Schroth Ralleye4, at least for my car.

I thought that at first too, but there was specific wording/images about the lap belts being mounted vertically down in front of the pelvic bone and the shoulder straps being in the horizontal to -20 degree down plain. Maybe I just read it wrong, which is why I wanted other eyes on it. Did I miss something?

Also, did you drill holes for your Rallye4 system? Or, did you use the factory mounting locations? I suppose you could say that since the CCR doesn't say anything about the mounting of the belt system, just the FIA standards, that you could really mount it anyway you wanted and be legal. That would allow you to mount to eye bolts through drilled holes or possibly to factory belt mounting points like the Rallye4 uses.

[hammerevo]

I thought that at first too, but there was specific wording/images about the lap belts being mounted vertically down in front of the pelvic bone and the shoulder straps being in the horizontal to -20 degree down plain. Maybe I just read it wrong, which is why I wanted other eyes on it. Did I miss something?

Also, did you drill holes for your Rallye4 system? Or, did you use the factory mounting locations? I suppose you could say that since the CCR doesn't say anything about the mounting of the belt system, just the FIA standards, that you could really mount it anyway you wanted and be legal. That would allow you to mount to eye bolts through drilled holes or possibly to factory belt mounting points like the Rallye4 uses.

I did not have to drill any points for the Rallye system. Yes you are right, it is slightly different than Schroth. The lap belts need to be vertically below the hip joint in this case, my factory points are slightly back, so it would require drilling and mounting new eyelets. Also, the mounting points on my shoulder straps were greater than 20 degrees, as they mounted on the factory eyelets on the rear seat. SO it seems the rear seat would need to be removed to accomodate this angle possibly?

One thing that confused me in the doc was it said "The lap belt should not pass over the sides of the seat, but through it". Which to me means, the lap belt should be at a verticle angle from both points of view, looking at the side as well as looking straight down from your hip. Is that how you read it?

[Snymo]

One thing that confused me in the doc was it said "The lap belt should not pass over the sides of the seat, but through it". Which to me means, the lap belt should be at a verticle angle from both points of view, looking at the side as well as looking straight down from your hip. Is that how you read it?

I took that to mean don't go over the side of a fixed back race seat, but through the belt holes....to ensure the belts are in contact with the body the entire time, not up and over the side of the seat. Also, since they say the lap belts should be approx 20" apart, I think they want you to actually wrap the belts around the seat. Or something like that. :confused:

The pictures in the instruction manual were helpful but still cause some confusion for me....

[ker]

SO it seems the rear seat would need to be removed to accomodate this angle possibly?



is it possible for the tail straps to attach to those weird little contraptions on the rear window shelf where baby seats can be attached?

i have no car so equipped, so just wondering. I would think they would be less than 20 degrees from the top horizontal in rick's posted diagram.

[Snymo]

is it possible for the tail straps to attach to those weird little contraptions on the rear window shelf where baby seats can be attached?

Unfortunately, in most cars with fold down seats, those hooks are on the back of the seat, so the belt would need to make a 90-degree bend down to be attached. Also, I don't think those are designed to support the weight of an adult and if the seat came loose (folded down) in an accident...that would be ugly!! :eek: So, not sure that's a valid option Kevin.

[Snymo]

All, the CCR has been updated again, to keep this clear and concise, follow the link below to the New & Improved wording thread:

CLICK HERE FOR THE UPDATED CCR WORDING. (http://www.nasarockymountain.com/nasa_forums/showthread.php?t=4362)