Non heel/toe downshifting?

[jbrauer11]

I've been driving my street cars with rev-matched downshifts since I was a teenager, unless I've got a bunch of passengers and am going real slow, then it doesn't really matter.

But my wife is coming out for her first ever HPDE at HPR this month, using our '06 Audi S4 6 speed.
The pedals are too wide for heel/toe (at least my method, not the 944spec method I saw on here from a 2007 thread), and I do have some extended pedal covers ready to go on, but she asked me to wait, doesn't want to deal with learning that in addition to driving on track the first time.

So my question is how is track driving taught without heel/toe, rev-matched downshifts? I know I've missed plenty of brake markers, and have ended up full on the brakes without the opportunity to get to the gas and downshift, then have to shift during or after the corner, but this is obviously not the most efficient manner.

Are students taught a specific way in NASA HPDE1?

[dnvrdrvr]

I do have some extended pedal covers ready to go on, but she asked me to wait, doesn't want to deal with learning that in addition to driving on track the first time.

So my question is how is track driving taught without heel/toe, rev-matched downshifts? I know I've missed plenty of brake markers, and have ended up full on the brakes without the opportunity to get to the gas and downshift, then have to shift during or after the corner, but this is obviously not the most efficient manner.

Are students taught a specific way in NASA HPDE1?

Your wife's a smart cookie. ;) There are many things to teach & learn first (the line, for instance)! She'll need a host of things to start happening automatically before she'll have the brain bandwidth to add in rev matching if it's not something she's accustomed to doing.

[JScheier]

Heal-toe is not taught in HPDE1. More along the lines of:
1. Track Familiarization
2. Finding the school line (turn-in, apex, turn-out, etc)
3. Identifying landmarks (visual queues)
4. Track awareness (looking ahead, checking mirrors, looking ahead)
5. Hand placement
6. Smooth inputs

In another school, when we start working on heel-toe we actually start in the parking lot, with the student in the driver's seat and my hands on their feet. You can manipulate their feet and show the different methods for them to try. One may be more comfortable, more accessible than another.

[ker]

as stated above, we don't teach heel/toe in g1 or 2 since there is so much more to learn. we do offer it in g3 if asked to do so.

i would also be willing to teach clutch-less shifting, left foot braking while throttling with the right foot if the trans is built for it.

[joestang]

Don't worry, if you don't shift out of first gear, there's no need to downshift. :D

Tell her to just drive like she would on her way to work. No need to play with heel/toe yet.

Work on the situational awareness, and stayng on the line, and the feel of the car.

...and all questions will be answered before she even leaves grid for her first session!

[jbrauer11]

Thanks for all the input!

I was more wondering, though, if heel/toe isn't taught (didn't think it would be, at least not to beginners), what exactly is taught? I'd like to give her some pointers before she gets there, and was never taught the 'school' way myself as I didn't need it.

Basically, what I would say is brake in a straight line, turn through the corner until going straight again, then downshift, maybe blipping the throttle a bit to match revs. But not until the apex and track out is done, at least.
(sorta wish I'd gotten an automatic to avoid this, but the stick shift is too much fun).

Is the teaching not that specific, or are students just told to do what they're comfortable with?

[ker]

the instructors generally give them everything they need as they need it.

no one student is alike so the instructors adjust to the driver's needs and abilities.

you have the basics though - brake and downshift in a straight line (trail braking is taught later), up-shift in a straight line, blipping is only encouraged if the driver is ready for that extra item to do.

a g1 participant is usually quite busy with the basic tasks, information to absorb, and learning "traffic".

also, g1/2 participants get a basic primer i email out just before the event that will help/explain the basics.

[Bullfrog Racing]

kiss - keep it simple s_________

[jbrauer11]

you have the basics though - brake and downshift in a straight line (trail braking is taught later), up-shift in a straight line, blipping is only encouraged if the driver is ready for that extra item to do.

a g1 participant is usually quite busy with the basic tasks, information to absorb, and learning "traffic".

Good deal -- that's what I was looking for.

I know I was father overwhelmed first time on track, and I love this stuff, been watching racing for years, so I know it'll be an even bigger challenge for someone who's not so into it.

Can specific instructors be requested for specific HPDE1 folks?

[ker]

josh, you may ask for a specific instructor (email me) but no promises are made. the instructor/participant pairings are made saturday morning with the best for all considered. if it works that your request can be met, then it will happen so long as the instructor is not family or close friend. we do try and pair instructors with similar cars to the participant.

[stealthy1]

When I was taught the basics of approaching a corner that would need a lower gear at exit it went like this:
-Approach corner and find your braking point.
-Brake only in a straight line approaching the corner.
-At the end of your braking line, before turn in, at your cornering speed, now clutch and downshift to appropriate gear for your corner speed.
-Now turn in, hit your apex while maintaining corner speed.
-Increase throttle input and use the entire exit for max exiting speed.

So brake then downshift then turn-in, apex, exit.
Blipping the throttle at the end of braking, just after the clutch is depressed to kinda match the lower gear, IMO, is easier to learn this way and gets new lappers thinking about the importance of matching without dealing with any unfamiliar pedal work yet.

Obviously different corners will require different throttle input while cornering. Some may only require throttle at or very near the apex or exit(decreasing radius/turn 6 at HPR). Others will require smooth throttle maintenance starting a good distance before the apex and increasing or maintaining at exit (turn 1 at PMP).

At least that's my .02 hope it helps. -Brake. Shift. Turn. Gas.

[jbrauer11]

I think I'll have her try this approach and see what she thinks. Currently, like most manual transmission drivers out there I'd imagine, she tends to downshift in or after the corner, with obvious disadvantages to both, especially on the track.

I remember Forrest saying several times there are still professional drivers out there that don't heel/toe, and are quite fast. I wonder exactly what it is they're doing, as I just don't see it being all that possible -- too much wasted time if your foot's not on both pedals.

[js5280]

Heel toe at race pace is pretty intimating so I starting practising on the road in safe conditions. That helped me learning the technique and muscle memory so I had more confidence applying it on the track.

[Lee Hodgson]

"I wonder exactly what it is they're doing, as I just don't see it being all that possible -- too much wasted time if your foot's not on both pedals."

I would say it is mostly mental. I learned to run time trials without heel/toe and was pretty quick. Like mentioned above; break going straight..downshift..turn in. Once you get good at and regularly use heel/toe you wouldn't do it another way because you don't want to concentrate on it. The track is not the place to learn it. Once I was decent on the streets with it, it took a bit on the track to be proficient with it at speed.
I figure I'll be working on heel/toe, trail breaking and turn in till I can't race anymore!
Lee

[UnsafeAtAnySpd]

I would say minimal shifting in general when first starting out. One less thing to worry about when learning the line, traffic awareness etc. Doesn't really matter if your squeezing out every second anyway. Plus with decent torque and gearing it still feels quick for a HPDE1 student.

[jbrauer11]

I would say it is mostly mental. I learned to run time trials without heel/toe and was pretty quick. Like mentioned above; break going straight..downshift..turn in.
Lee

That's impressive, I'd say. I still tend to think the car would be bogging alot as you can only downshift at fairly low engine speeds, unless there's a bunch of clutch slip used. I suppose earlier throttle application solves that?

I would say minimal shifting in general when first starting out.

Absolutely -- I'd hoped my wife could come to PPIR as really just one up and one down per lap is sufficient, and the entire infield in one gear is fine. But couldn't make it.

I think HPR will be a bit more shifting intensive for her, though 3rd should be fine for pretty much everything but the straights. I'm gonna take the car out with her in it in my first session to show her the track and all, so that should help.

[JScheier]

I think HPR will be a bit more shifting intensive for her, though 3rd should be fine for pretty much everything but the straights.

My wife did the PCA Ladies Day at HPR and did the entire track in 3rd gear for two sessions. After that, the instructor had her going between 2-3 / 3-4. Made sure she was comfortable with the track first before pushing into more speed.

FWIW, I don't heel-toe unless I have to prove I can do it. Multiple right knee surgeries has made it something which results in huge amounts of pain / swelling if I do it for more than two laps. I do left foot brake though... which was very difficult at HPR this past Friday as my left knee is now giving me huge problems (and is currently very swollen and extremely sore... most likely because I'm a stubborn bastige and kept left foot braking).

Maybe I should just get an SMG / automatic and admit that I'm old ;)

[js5280]

...or a 370z with synchro match!

[MHISSTC]

Maybe I should just get an SMG / automatic and admit that I'm old ;)

You should.


And then sell me your BOSS 302.

:D