how close is too close ?

[svochuck]

Here is a little warm up to HPDE driving. In the first video what went wrong ? What made the second video outcome different ?


http://videos.streetfire.net/category/Porsche/0/f09cb113-06c8-4e29-ae44-98ff00332473.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u1pTw1MLDY

[BADVENM]

Well for one, the Porsche did not get a wave from the Honda guy letting him pass :)

Looked like the Porsche came in hard to pass the Honda but couldnt stay in bounds because he was carrying too much speed and was running out of road surface. The Honda held his line. You could see the Porsche come in bounds and hit the Honda.

First video, to me the Porsche made the mistake.

In the 2nd video they gave the car ahead of them plenty of room when he/they were in the turn. If something were to happen (and it did) they would have plenty of time and room to make adjustments (provided nobody was immediately behind the car with the camera).

[bpanther]

In the first video what went wrong ? What made the second video outcome different ?

Obviously the instructor in the 2nd video made all the difference. This guy ROCKS!!!! I'd be proud to have him in my right hand seat anytime.


Seriously, it all comes back to one driver is learning in an HPDE environment - he has his head in the right place and is paying attention and the other is playing boy racer and has his head in the wrong place.

[jgray]

I watched these without audio, so I may have missed something, but...

I agree, the Porsche made a banzai move, had too much speed leading into an awkward, uncontrolled line. Then he gave it too much power and lost rear grip (or put on the power with a rear wheel off the pavement). When the grip came back he was lined up to T-bone the Honda. The result of bad judgment on his part and driving beyond his skills. The Honda might have slowed when he saw the Porsche go wide, but I'm not sure if that's the correct thing to do (or something that I would have done).

In the second video, there was obviously enough water at one point on the track that it impeded the grip levels of the lead car. The lead car also looked like he was taking the incorrect line, early apexing, which caused him to brake more than normal to make the turn. I'll bet these guys tip-toe around that corner much like we do (or should do) in Turn 10 at Pueblo when wet.

Joel

[jgray]

I take that back. I watched the second video again... The lead car either:

a. put on the power down too soon and presumably still had wet, low grip tires. OR

b. let off the power completely, loading the front and lifting the back (resulting in the spin)

Regardless, I think the point of your post is that the car following gave the lead car plenty of room to goof up. Right?

Joel

[chris_venturini]

Its pretty obvious what the problem is in both of those vids, the porsche drivers are driving the wrong type of porsche resulting in them being distracted with grief of how much money they will have to spend to be competitive.

but seriously, the first group was driving far too aggressive for hpde1, not leaving room, attempting passes in areas where they shouldnt have, and racing, HPDE isnt racing.

the second groups instructor sounded like chuck for some reason...

[jgray]

That was HPDE 1?!?! Somehow I feel safer in group 3!

[svochuck]

Its pretty obvious what the problem is in both of those vids, the porsche drivers are driving the wrong type of porsche resulting in them being distracted with grief of how much money they will have to spend to be competitive.

but seriously, the first group was driving far too aggressive for hpde1, not leaving room, attempting passes in areas where they shouldnt have, and racing, HPDE isnt racing.

the second groups instructor sounded like chuck for some reason...

Yea I feel sorry for those poor folks who need to spend more than $4500 to have the lap record at a race track :cool:

IMPORTANT NOTE !!!

The videos did not come from NASA ! It looks like the first video was kind of like our HPDE 4 but it's not.

In the first video if we apply HPDE rules the Honda was following too close but both guys would get into trouble.

What if the Boxster in the second video were to let off the brake and roll backwards :eek:

[cullenwinter]

I thought that the guy driving in the first vid should have lifted after the porsche went around unpredictably. I would have because I still have some payments left to make on the wagon !!

[leggwork]

I watched these without audio, so I may have missed something, but...

I agree, the Porsche made a banzai move, had too much speed leading into an awkward, uncontrolled line. Then he gave it too much power and lost rear grip (or put on the power with a rear wheel off the pavement). When the grip came back he was lined up to T-bone the Honda. The result of bad judgment on his part and driving beyond his skills. The Honda might have slowed when he saw the Porsche go wide, but I'm not sure if that's the correct thing to do (or something that I would have done).

snip...

Joel

hey Joel,
in HPDE, the "correct thing to do" is to do whatever it takes to avoid contact! There are no prizes.

And even if it is racing, "to finish first, first you have to finish" so avoiding possible race-ending contact is a good thing also.
cheers,
bruce

[Weston]

Looks like the yellow Porsche wanted to make that pass a little too much and ended up going into the corner too hot as a result, causing him to go off at the exit.

Clearly, the Honda driver needed a "psychic instructor", like the guy in the second video had. :D

[leggwork]

you don't have to be too psychic when you see someone ahead of you executing too tight a turn and fighting to keep the car on the track vs. just driving down the grass at the exit for a bit to get the car under control.

Looks like the yellow Porsche wanted to make that pass a little too much and ended up going into the corner too hot as a result, causing him to go off at the exit.

Clearly, the Honda driver needed a "psychic instructor", like the guy in the second video had. :D

[bpanther]

I thought that the guy driving in the first vid should have lifted after the porsche went around unpredictably.

Actually it wasn't unpredictable. Notice that the Honda stays mid track and does not go all the way to the exit after the previous corner. He knew from the exit of the prior corner that this P car was going to blow by him on the outside.

[cullenwinter]

Actually it wasn't unpredictable. Notice that the Honda stays mid track and does not go all the way to the exit after the previous corner. He knew from the exit of the prior corner that this P car was going to blow by him on the outside.

Yep, watched again. Now, NASA would never allow that highly flammable shirt in the second video, would they ? :p

[95sprtcpedrvr]

I completely agree with Badvnem, but I would like to add that the guy in the Honda might not have been paying attention to driving his line ( hence; he was watching the Porsche) to pass the Porsche because it seemed that he was not on the gas to accelerate out of the turn.

In the second, the instructor was keeping the student focused on his line and to maintain some momentum while keeping clear.

[Del Armstrong]

Here is a little warm up to HPDE driving. In the first video what went wrong ?


Chuck,

Awesome instructional video!

Admit it, this is your version of a Rorschach test for HPDE, everybody sees something different in it. :)

I see this incident happening on two levels. On the technical level, the Porsche looks to me like he (she?) made the pass later than he was comfortable with, which didn't leave time to set up the turn, resulting in over-cooking the turn and most critical of all - the dreaded early apex.

In retrospect, the S2K should have been less trusting of the Porsche. A sufficiently experienced driver might have wondered about that pass and line, and decided to give the Porsche more room on the turn. Instead, the S2K driver assumed that the Porsche had everything under control and would drive a normal line. I have to admit, the first time I watched the video, I didn't see the problem that the Porsche was having until it was too late.

Also, if I had been driving the S2K under HPDE rules, I probably would have backed off on the straight a bit to give the Porsche a cleaner pass.

But ultimately, the passer is responsible for safely passing the passee, and I would argue that (at least by HPDE standards) the Porsche was very marginal in that respect.

This video also gets me thinking about driving on another level. When we're out on the track (or even I-25), we're all trusting each other. Depending on what level we're at, there's more or less trust. At HPDE-1, we're all an unknown quantity so we only drive with an instructor on board and have very limited passing zones. We don't really trust each other very much at HPDE-1. ;) By the time we're at HPDE-4 we assume that the folks we share the track with can be trusted to have good situational awareness and drive anywhere on the track with a controlled predictable line and a modicum of courtesy. (Of course, should you move up to AI, all that goes out the window - you can trust that any hair-brained, completely crazy move that somebody can think of is on the table. They're just good enough to usually pull it off. :D).

So part of the challenge of driving is that when somebody else is within striking distance ("strike" as in "hit") we have no choice but to trust them to some extent. And while we may not always do it consciously, I think as we drive we assign a certain amount of trust to those around us. If you make a diving pass when I didn't expect it, I'll adjust how much I trust you going through the turn - and perhaps back off some. If your driving impresses me, I may be more comfortable trying to stay closer behind you, in effect trusting you more to not screw up.

And of course, the question of trust is all tied up in how much risk we're willing to accept. If I'm willing to accept a lot of risk (e.g. wheel-to-wheel racing), I'll trust you more - even if you drive like an idiot. If I'm not willing to risk much damage to my car, I'll have to trust you less in order to keep the risk within bounds that I'm willing to accept.

I'm sure this all is exactly what the S2K driver was saying as he commented to his passenger in Italian. :-)

[svochuck]

What if the Boxster in the second video were to let off the brake and roll backwards :eek:

No one bit off on this yet so I will say it. as We were coming around the boxster I would have liked the driver to slow down even more just in case the boxster let go of his brakes and started to roll back to the left side of the track ...

[MHISSTC]

When we're out on the track (or even I-25), we're all trusting each other. Depending on what level we're at, there's more or less trust. At HPDE-1, we're all an unknown quantity so we only drive with an instructor on board and have very limited passing zones. We don't really trust each other very much at HPDE-1. ;)

On I-25 I have a complete lack of trust in everyone! Almost no one is courtious, or paying attention to what is in front of them, or in their mirrors, or monitoring their gauges. It's like a Negative 1 HPDE.

Has everyone noticed the HPDE effect on your drive home after an HPDE weekend? It's usually most noticeable after your very first event. The driving environment seems to open up around you. You tend to look further ahead in space and time. Instead of blindly following the bumper of the car in front of you looking at the taillights for a clue when you should hit the brakes, you look several cars ahead and in all directions around you in an attempt to anticipate the movement of others to increase the amount of reaction time you will have when someone around you does something stupid. If you have, good for you. Keep it up.

A point that was touched on about the contact incident video, but wasn't discussed much, is that there were two distinct passes. The first was the Porsche when it came around the S2K. The second was when the S2K came abreast of the Porsche. The first and more dramatic pass was sketchy, but it was completed and it didn't lead to contact. The second, but seemingly less dramatic pass of the S2K trying to go by the Porsche, was also sketchy, but is the one that actually led to contact. That is why the Honda driver was ultimately responsible for the contact. His pass was the one in which he was responsible for making it safely around the car ahead, and did not.

Neither one of these drivers had their "HPDE Head" on. I see several places this bad situation could have been defused. First, the Honda driver could have stayed left on the driving line which would have made the pass a little less tempting for the Porsche driver. Second, the Porsche driver could have refused to pass the S2K when the Honda driver left the driving line and opened up a gaping sucker hole for him to drive right through, realizing that if he continued to stay on the correct line he would very shortly have another opportunity to pass at the exit of the next corner. Third, once the Porsche driver took the bait and drove through the sucker hole, the Honda driver could have backed off and watched the Porsche gracefully spin through the corner exit and then drive past him keeping in mind the Porsche's direction of travel.

Some of the lessons to be learned for HPDE that I will emphasize at our next event:
-It's not a race. There's no reason to push it that hard.
-Stay on the driving line unless you are the one doing the passing.
-Signal passes.
-Back off after signaling a pass.
-Don't bait someone into a pass.
-Don't pass unless you can safely complete the pass prior to the braking zone.
-Strive to be consistent and predictable.
-Look ahead for potentialy bad situations and always leave yourself an out.

This discussion also emphasizes the point of why we teach a school line at each track in HPDE 1&2. It may not be the fastest line through the corner, but driven correctly and consistently, it should be the safest. Consistency also leads to predictability, which is something we can all appreciate. This leads to the trust that Dell mentioned above. Maybe it would be better to use the phrase "cautiosly optomistic" instead of "trust". As in "I'm 'cautiosly optomistic' that the Boxter in front of me will realize that his grip will be somewhat compromised, along with my own, after splashing through that puddle, therefore I will reduce my speed somewhat in anticipation that he may not realize that and I may also have to drive a different and somewhat compromised line around him if he spins."

[Del Armstrong]

The second, but seemingly less dramatic pass of the S2K trying to go by the Porsche, was also sketchy, but is the one that actually led to contact. That is why the Honda driver was ultimately responsible for the contact. His pass was the one in which he was responsible for making it safely around the car ahead, and did not.


That's an interesting idea. My interpretation of the video was that the S2K made an "accidental" pass. It didn't look to me like the S2K had intended to pass him, but the line and speed the S2K was committed to resulted in a "pass" when the Porsche went off the track.

Does that make sense, or is my lack of racing experience showing? If the Porsche had managed to make the turn OK, would the S2K likely have passed it?

[leggwork]

it doesn't matter what might have happened - whatever the unfolding situation is, you must react to that and do what is necessary to avoid contact. The S2K could have predicted that the porsche was going to come back on track and should have done more to avoid him. He was not "committed" to anything (that implies helplessness) - you can slow down in a turn if you do it carefully.
cheers,
bruce


That's an interesting idea. My interpretation of the video was that the S2K made an "accidental" pass. It didn't look to me like the S2K had intended to pass him, but the line and speed the S2K was committed to resulted in a "pass" when the Porsche went off the track.

Does that make sense, or is my lack of racing experience showing? If the Porsche had managed to make the turn OK, would the S2K likely have passed it?

[MHISSTC]

He was not "committed" to anything (that implies helplessness) - you can slow down in a turn if you do it carefully.

I was just going to say there is no "accidental pass".

[jgray]

hey Joel,
in HPDE, the "correct thing to do" is to do whatever it takes to avoid contact! There are no prizes.

Good point Bruce, I'm on-board with that philosophy 100%!

It's difficult to judge the speed and lateral loads on the car in the first video, but my comment was derived from what I know about skid pad testing. Your first reaction might be to lift or even touch the brakes, but in the middle of a turn, it may have loaded the front wheels resulting in loss of grip at the the rear, then a spin.

I can only assume that if that was me, I would have slowed before going into the turn. If the incident had happened mid-turn, I may not have slowed at all in order to keep control of my vehicle.

BTW, a skid pad exercise would be fun if there was a place to do that.:)

Joel

[Coloradomark]

Here's another video - what do you think about the the way the car bailed off in front of me to go into the pits?

http://www.livevideo.com/video/80B42AEF86A3408DA3126A7846374264/pca-at-pueblo.aspx?m_tkc=2475298

[Mustcone347]

Give the guy a break. He nearly ditched the car and I hardly think he had time to point you by as his hands were full of his steering wheel.

I mean really there are intentional bone head moves but that was not one of them...........it was just what happened. If you had been racing thats called opportunity to pass on the inside. But seeing that is was a porsche event(no passing in the corners) there was no chance of contact.........right.

Malcolm

[jclark]

Once he gained control, which in my opinion he had after he got his two wheels back on the surface, he should have stayed on line and then pointed you by on the upcoming front straight. He was clearly not watching his mirrors.

[Coloradomark]

Give the guy a break. He nearly ditched the car and I hardly think he had time to point you by as his hands were full of his steering wheel.

I mean really there are intentional bone head moves but that was not one of them...........it was just what happened. If you had been racing thats called opportunity to pass on the inside. But seeing that is was a porsche event(no passing in the corners) there was no chance of contact.........right.

Malcolm

The point by comment text in the video was becasue I had been on him for more than a lap - two straights. He was trying too hard to stay ahead of me, evidenced by his erratic lines. He should have pointed me by on the back straight. I wasn't right on him at 8 because I expected that he would point me by between 8 and 9 and I didn't want to be right on him in case he made another mistake.

[svochuck]

Mark
Great video ! it seems the other car was able to run with you on the straights but not in the turns . We have this on the track all of the time when a car catches up to you he/she is faster the smart thing to do is let them by then follow them to see where they are faster. If you hold a faster car up they often feel they need to get closer to you to make sure you know they are faster. then if you mess up the chance of an accident is greater.
so if someone catches up with you let pass ASAP!

[Mustcone347]

The point by comment text in the video was becasue I had been on him for more than a lap - two straights. He was trying too hard to stay ahead of me, evidenced by his erratic lines. He should have pointed me by on the back straight. I wasn't right on him at 8 because I expected that he would point me by between 8 and 9 and I didn't want to be right on him in case he made another mistake.

Yes that is where he was a bone head, but even in HPDE I suspect some of you get the racing mentality and try to make each other earn your spot. Another solution would have been to let him get a 1/2 lap on you so as to avoid his bone headdedness. that way you would have been clear to run your hot laps. By not doing this you also played into the whole situation. It is hard not to follow a slower car(in the corners) you cannot pass. Frustrating to say the least.......next time you would be better off letting him go and run in clear track.


Malcolm

[Coloradomark]

Yes, testosterone often gets in the way of wise decisions.

[dmdirks]

Yes, testosterone often gets in the way of wise decisions.

Yes, and not just while driving a car...:rolleyes:

Cool video- even the sound track was groovy!